nchawkeye
58 Cal.
.530 home cast ball in front of 80grs FFF Goex...Doe was about 40 yards away at shot, ran about 35-40 yards...
pictures wanted of prb damage
- Thread starter daniel collums
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:rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:
I think I just got paddled. :grin:
I think I just got paddled. :grin:
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Greenmtnboy said:
Love this Pic, I killed a nice buck in the rain one year & the other two guys had stayed in camp due to the weather. I walked into camp soaking wet with the hart in my hand. Man they hated me :cursing: :haha:
Thanks for bringing back a fond memory :thumbsup:
Danny Ross
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Toccopola,
Don't have picture to prove it but shot a button buck at about 30-35 yards shooting a .490 round ball using 95 gr of Pyrodex. The ball entered just on the back side of the liver. The ball gelatinized about 50% of the liver and proceeded into the chest cavity and did not exit the animal. The animal did not go 30 feet and was down in less than 10 seconds if I remember right. I did not look for the ball when I field dress the animal. Pictures are not needed with a good description.
Now having said all of that I disagree with your supposition that a new Black Powder shooter needs to know what kind of damage a round ball will do the organs of a animal. On a 50 caliber round ball as a example, they are all ready putting a half inch hole through the vital organs of a animal, and that is without expansion. That is larger than the expansion than a lot of center fire bullets. A half inch hole alone is a huge amount of damage when it traverses any organ and usually there is more than one organ that gets hit. As with center fire, larger animals usually need more energy to completely penetrate so you go to a larger caliber same as you do with Black Powder. Unless you start off big to begin with
. Round balls may not have the instant kinetic energy dump that centerfire's do, but they have the Momentum because of their heavier weight to carry them through the animal and creating a huge hole/wound channel, as well as tissue destruction associated with it. There have been plenty of animal loss with centerfires, so they are not the end all in killing. The pictures alone of animals killed with Traditional Muzzleloaders should be enough to show these weapons are more than capable of killing animals. I can guarantee you that there have been more animals killed with roundball than with centerfire weapons because they have been around a whole lot longer, and hunting participation has decreased over the years with our modern society. This is actually a similar argument with Compound Bows and Traditional Bows. The Traditional Muzzleloader is a very effective killing weapon, doesn't matter what the wound channel looks like in comparison to something else. How dead is dead? That is all that matters in the end. Traditional Muzzleloaders, Bows, and Centerfire weapons all kill. Just a little differently, each in there own way. You don't need wound channels to show the difference. The shooter does need to understand they are limited to their capability of shooting with open sites and the limitations of distance shooting a roundball (cant kill them at 250yds). The shooter placing the shot into the chest cavity of the animal is the important part. No matter what weapon of choice is, if the shooter doesn't place it in the chest for a short tracking job, breaks the spine that results in the animal dropping instantly, a long and difficult tracking job is going to happen, or you have just wounded a animal. So again I disagree with you supposition, they need to see pictures of wound channels. They need explained to them they are punching a Huge hole with a roundball to start with, through the animals vital organs they are shooting, and not much lives after that happens. DANNY
Don't have picture to prove it but shot a button buck at about 30-35 yards shooting a .490 round ball using 95 gr of Pyrodex. The ball entered just on the back side of the liver. The ball gelatinized about 50% of the liver and proceeded into the chest cavity and did not exit the animal. The animal did not go 30 feet and was down in less than 10 seconds if I remember right. I did not look for the ball when I field dress the animal. Pictures are not needed with a good description.
Now having said all of that I disagree with your supposition that a new Black Powder shooter needs to know what kind of damage a round ball will do the organs of a animal. On a 50 caliber round ball as a example, they are all ready putting a half inch hole through the vital organs of a animal, and that is without expansion. That is larger than the expansion than a lot of center fire bullets. A half inch hole alone is a huge amount of damage when it traverses any organ and usually there is more than one organ that gets hit. As with center fire, larger animals usually need more energy to completely penetrate so you go to a larger caliber same as you do with Black Powder. Unless you start off big to begin with
. Round balls may not have the instant kinetic energy dump that centerfire's do, but they have the Momentum because of their heavier weight to carry them through the animal and creating a huge hole/wound channel, as well as tissue destruction associated with it. There have been plenty of animal loss with centerfires, so they are not the end all in killing. The pictures alone of animals killed with Traditional Muzzleloaders should be enough to show these weapons are more than capable of killing animals. I can guarantee you that there have been more animals killed with roundball than with centerfire weapons because they have been around a whole lot longer, and hunting participation has decreased over the years with our modern society. This is actually a similar argument with Compound Bows and Traditional Bows. The Traditional Muzzleloader is a very effective killing weapon, doesn't matter what the wound channel looks like in comparison to something else. How dead is dead? That is all that matters in the end. Traditional Muzzleloaders, Bows, and Centerfire weapons all kill. Just a little differently, each in there own way. You don't need wound channels to show the difference. The shooter does need to understand they are limited to their capability of shooting with open sites and the limitations of distance shooting a roundball (cant kill them at 250yds). The shooter placing the shot into the chest cavity of the animal is the important part. No matter what weapon of choice is, if the shooter doesn't place it in the chest for a short tracking job, breaks the spine that results in the animal dropping instantly, a long and difficult tracking job is going to happen, or you have just wounded a animal. So again I disagree with you supposition, they need to see pictures of wound channels. They need explained to them they are punching a Huge hole with a roundball to start with, through the animals vital organs they are shooting, and not much lives after that happens. DANNYpa woods roamer
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Lefty Lyman .54, which I stupidly sold!! About A 50 Yd. shot. Went only 25yds.
daniel collums
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i do agree that a graphic picture is not needed if a good description is given of all details. But a picture just says so much more even if its just a picture of deer or other critter on ground showing hole of proper bullet placement. Some people but not all will take muzzle loader in hand for the first time having been raised on centerfire rifles only, dont understand range limit and bullet placement needed when using a traditional un-scoped rifle, they just grab the rifle and head out the door thinking i got a cannon and the game law says i can shoot ever thing but spotted fawns. Aim and fire then after they gut shoot a few dozen and shoot the legs off a few dozen more they stick the uncleaned loaded gun in the closet and spread the word that all a muzzle loader will do is cripple a deer. As for black powder guns having killed more game than modern center fire/rim/shotgun(which is a center fire)i dont agree. Early settlers did kill lots of game with gun not to mention traps(poor beaver, buffalo,pigeons) i think more game has been killed by modern firearms, so many that game laws had to be made because of the killing effect of modern guns and population explosion of people. Most of what i said about the new muzzle loading hunters happened years ago so i dont think thats happening on a wide scale base anymore. At a time the T/C, CVA and lots of other brands of side hammer guns were for sale in every store you walked in that sold firearms. Now in most of the south u.s. there are no muzzle loaders for sale. Just the little time i've been a member here i've seen people asked about things like "will a prb be enough to kill" "how much powder do i need" will my gun be big enough to kill a deer at a 100 yards, and the list just goes on. These people are not dumb, most are just new to this type gun,want to learn the right way to do it so they can have the fun we are having, some are hunters some are just target shooters that dont have any though of killing. There is a warning before you go to this part of the forum of graphic images, if people dont want to see these images or get sick easy why put yourself through it when you know whats here. and for a black powder not having enough ump to kill at 250 yards thats not so, you an't going to hit what your aiming at (expert target shooters excluded)but it will still be enough to kill depending on load. but for anyone reading this please dont shoot at a animal that far away.
daniel collums
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nice shot placement, the more you folks poke these pictures of these flintlocks in my face the more i want one.
54ball
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From about 1740 to 1815 were the years of the deerskin trade. In those years millions upon millions of deer were killed year round to where, deer east of the Mississippi were practically extinct.
This is not counting the eastern elk or Eastern Buffalo. Never again will game be killed on this Continent at that scale. It will take 500 years of "sporting seasons" to equal those numbers IMHO.
There is a reason 1800s longrifles are called squirrel rifles....the deer were so few. I remember as a kid if you saw a deer track it was a big deal, like take a picture to show your friends. Now you see them hit roadside as much or more than opossums.
daniel collums
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one of the old guys that let me hunt his farm told me that the year of 53 he made the biggest corn crop ever. that fall had the earliest cold, wet season on record and out of 300 acres of corn ground he barely got enough to make a 100# sack of meal. deer ate it all. the town i live in was est. in 1747 we had the first women college, this town also is known as the birth place of women's property ownership rites. some of the records talk of the farm lands that were in our area by 1775, that a man could stand on sandy mountain and see for a 100 miles in any direction and all he could see was cotton fields. its no wonder that entire population of deer,coon and other critters were erased from the land by over hunting and habitat destruction. lots of pictures of this place in the 1900's show the clan on the porch and filling up the front yard with folks and some of the best looking coon hounds in the country. every little community had the same type family farms. i have been a forest ranger now for the state of ms. for right at 30 years and in that time i have seen and read so many documents that i know the kind of numbers of game taken in the long gone days of past. but i have seen the numbers of deer kills all over the country in the last 45 years to know that we are harvesting a huge number of critters and with the reintroduction of turkeys we now have flocks that are right at or rival the number of birds that were here 150 years ago. you know its hard to imagine way back in the 1700 and 1800's that man could come up with that much lead to shoot all them critters and wage war at the same time. no wonder its so hard to find lead these days.
Danny Ross
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The reason why so many ask question about Traditional Black Powder is because it is a lost hunting/shooting art. I see it all the time with Traditional Archery. Modern society has gotten use to the "More High Tech?" way of shooting: Scopes, special trigger set ups. Shooting with open sights is becoming a lost art form because of the scope. It takes more work. Anyone who shoots, SHOULD know that they have to sight in their firearm and know that firearm they are hunting with. As the public range officer at the range I go to says, people show up in high numbers 1-2 weeks just prior to our gun season here in Ohio. Shoot a few rounds and believe keeping them in the paper plate at 50 yards is good enough and don't practice any other time. I imagine the people you are talking about do the same thing with their normal hunting weapon, except with Black Powder it takes a little more work than they are use to, as we know, and just don't want to take the time to do it. Besides they only get ONE shot, something else most are not use to. As for them not cleaning their Black Powder rifles, if your check their normal hunting weapons they are probably just just as dirty. They just don't want to take the time needed to clean Black Powder, it is to much work, and the rifle pays for it. "I" believe a good to excellent shooter IS A good to excellent shooter. They know how to take care of there weapon, they know it takes work to shoot it accurately. People who REALLY get into Black Powder shooting get into it because they love what they are doing, because of its challenge, its limitations, and it's fun. They don't do it JUST because it gives them another season. Those that do it for that reason are the ones who fail at it. Not everyone who shoots Traditional Black Powder is going to have the mind set that is needed to do it. We can't help that, no matter how much WE enjoy it.
Personal experience: I got introduced to this sport 29 years ago through a friends Brother-in-law and his friend. We had been hunting all week they had killed a couple of deer with their TC Hawkens. At the end of the week they had some speed loaders made up they wanted shot. I got to fire a couple of shots. I was so much more accurate with it than the shotgun I had been using at that time. I had to get one. I eventually did a few years later. For me it is so much cheaper to shoot and because of that I shoot more and have gotten a whole lot better at shooting and gained a lot of confidence. I never will forget the feeling I had when I went to shoot the first deer I killed with my 50cal Renegade. I had been hunting with a single shot shot gun for a couple of years, but knew I could reload it relatively quickly if needed. With that muzzleloader I knew it was all or nothing. Once I pulled that trigger the opportunity was over. It was the only deer I had seen all week and it was now Saturday evening last day to hunt. I was cold and scared that I'd screw up the shot. When I pulled the trigger and the smoke cleared out with the wind I saw the deer jump over a big rose bush. Did I hit it?? I found no blood where the deer was standing. I figure out how to get around the rosebush and found the blood trail on the other side. When I recovered the deer which was a little button buck I was so pumped. It was the same for my first flintlock kill. I now have 4 caplocks and two flintlocks. I have two of the other kind to but I can't tell you when I shot them last. I know it has been at least 8 years, not really sure why I bought them. That is what REALLY gets people into this, is that intense excitement of that single shot and know it is all you, using those open sights. It is so hard for me to even think about hunting with anything else. But it is not for everybody. DANNY
Oh yeah before I forget. The reason game laws were put into place was so there would not be a over harvest of animals (look at the history of the deer, elk, and ducks) no matter what weapon used. Had nothing to do with modern firearm. Had everything to do with market hunting. DANNY
Personal experience: I got introduced to this sport 29 years ago through a friends Brother-in-law and his friend. We had been hunting all week they had killed a couple of deer with their TC Hawkens. At the end of the week they had some speed loaders made up they wanted shot. I got to fire a couple of shots. I was so much more accurate with it than the shotgun I had been using at that time. I had to get one. I eventually did a few years later. For me it is so much cheaper to shoot and because of that I shoot more and have gotten a whole lot better at shooting and gained a lot of confidence. I never will forget the feeling I had when I went to shoot the first deer I killed with my 50cal Renegade. I had been hunting with a single shot shot gun for a couple of years, but knew I could reload it relatively quickly if needed. With that muzzleloader I knew it was all or nothing. Once I pulled that trigger the opportunity was over. It was the only deer I had seen all week and it was now Saturday evening last day to hunt. I was cold and scared that I'd screw up the shot. When I pulled the trigger and the smoke cleared out with the wind I saw the deer jump over a big rose bush. Did I hit it?? I found no blood where the deer was standing. I figure out how to get around the rosebush and found the blood trail on the other side. When I recovered the deer which was a little button buck I was so pumped. It was the same for my first flintlock kill. I now have 4 caplocks and two flintlocks. I have two of the other kind to but I can't tell you when I shot them last. I know it has been at least 8 years, not really sure why I bought them. That is what REALLY gets people into this, is that intense excitement of that single shot and know it is all you, using those open sights. It is so hard for me to even think about hunting with anything else. But it is not for everybody. DANNY
Oh yeah before I forget. The reason game laws were put into place was so there would not be a over harvest of animals (look at the history of the deer, elk, and ducks) no matter what weapon used. Had nothing to do with modern firearm. Had everything to do with market hunting. DANNY
rodwha
58 Cal.
"That is what REALLY gets people into this”¦"
And here I thought it was the berating that some of the "traditional" fellas do when you don't do it their way.
And here I thought it was the berating that some of the "traditional" fellas do when you don't do it their way.
:shake: Apparently round balls are ineffective on trolls.
Greenmtnboy
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rodwha said:
I haven't harvested a elk or deer in the last 15 yrs with anything but a Patched round ball and only a flint lock in the last five years.
my ranges have been from several feet to 100 yards.
50 and 54 cal are my perfered cal. IMHO they have the best long range or down range performance.
with 100 to 110 grns of FFG or FFFG Goex.
I have always harvested a elk and deer every year for the last 25 years and have never had any of them go more than a few yards before dumping.
I always shoot for lung/heart shots, NEVER shoulder bone.
I get MOA( one inch groups at 100 yrds) and keep doing ball,patch and load development until I do.
I shoot only custom barrels.
Greenmtnbarrels or no longer a good choice IMHO. I now shoot only Rice barrels.
:hatsoff:
bendjoseph
36 Cal.
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Nice shot! Love your stock
I've found proper shoulder shots to always be lethal, their only requirement being accurate shot placement. Furthermore, they require no expansion as evidenced by experimenting with solid brass balls as a possible non-lead PRB alternative.
10/31/12
HISTORY
Testing this summer as a possible lead ball alternative, I found solid brass .5625" x 201grn balls to be extremely accurate.
The once fired (1X) balls in the photo were recovered after passing through 21” of rubber mulch in a cardboard trap box I made and don’t have a mark on them, no changes in dimensions, patches are perfect...so I decided to use the 1X balls for field testing on deer.
LOAD DETAILS
38" x .58cal Rice barrel / Early Virginia
Goex 4F prime
100grns Goex 2F main
.62cal Duro-Felt OP wad, lubed with NL1000
.028" Cotton Duck patch, lubed with NL1000
.5625" Solid Brass Ball from 'Online Metals'
Weight = 201 grains
PERFORMANCE DETAILS
Hunting this afternoon, a Spike and a Doe stepped out of an overgrown clear-cut area about 55-60yds in front of my ladder...came across the tractor path and into the oak ridge.
I leveled the sights on her chest/heart and just as I was finding the trigger she stopped and put her head down for a mushroom or acorn at about 50yds...instantly tweaked the sights to the neck vertebrae/shoulder blade junction and touched it off...dropped dead in her tracks and never moved.
FILE PHOTOS
10/31/12
HISTORY
Testing this summer as a possible lead ball alternative, I found solid brass .5625" x 201grn balls to be extremely accurate.
The once fired (1X) balls in the photo were recovered after passing through 21” of rubber mulch in a cardboard trap box I made and don’t have a mark on them, no changes in dimensions, patches are perfect...so I decided to use the 1X balls for field testing on deer.
LOAD DETAILS
38" x .58cal Rice barrel / Early Virginia
Goex 4F prime
100grns Goex 2F main
.62cal Duro-Felt OP wad, lubed with NL1000
.028" Cotton Duck patch, lubed with NL1000
.5625" Solid Brass Ball from 'Online Metals'
Weight = 201 grains
PERFORMANCE DETAILS
Hunting this afternoon, a Spike and a Doe stepped out of an overgrown clear-cut area about 55-60yds in front of my ladder...came across the tractor path and into the oak ridge.
I leveled the sights on her chest/heart and just as I was finding the trigger she stopped and put her head down for a mushroom or acorn at about 50yds...instantly tweaked the sights to the neck vertebrae/shoulder blade junction and touched it off...dropped dead in her tracks and never moved.
FILE PHOTOS
This seems to be a controversial topic, but since the question was asked, and I think it's OK to show someone that might be in doubt of a roundball's effectiveness the results of what it can do, I'm posting pics of the lungs of a large doe shot with a .54 cal roundball in front of 90 gr of KiK 2F. The shot was 35 yards and passed through. The doe traveled 40-50 yards and a "mist" of blood was evident from just a few feet from the place she was hit all the way to where she fell.
As a comparison, there were five large bucks taken off our lease this year with high-powered new 20 gauge "shotguns" designed to be rifles in most respects. Each shot was almost identical to mine. The shortest any of those traveled was about 70 yards...the farthest over 100 yards. I'm sure the size of those bucks provided some extra stamina to account for some of that distance, but then those were shock-laden 20 gauge slugs and mine was a .54 round ball. I think this is ample evidence for anyone that a patched roundball properly placed is a very effective and humane load.
Entrance:
Mid-lung path:
Exit:
As a comparison, there were five large bucks taken off our lease this year with high-powered new 20 gauge "shotguns" designed to be rifles in most respects. Each shot was almost identical to mine. The shortest any of those traveled was about 70 yards...the farthest over 100 yards. I'm sure the size of those bucks provided some extra stamina to account for some of that distance, but then those were shock-laden 20 gauge slugs and mine was a .54 round ball. I think this is ample evidence for anyone that a patched roundball properly placed is a very effective and humane load.
Entrance:
Mid-lung path:
Exit:
