Pietta 1851 Navy cylinder does not rotate when cocking?

[45man]

Wonderful gun and so much better then the Colt. The frame led the way to modern guns. Make smoke and enjoy.

 

[arcticap]

I decided to play with my .44 handguns today a bit, none have been fired and all purchased within the past 5 months.

Both of my brass frames seem to function fine,

I was curious about what make and models your other new brassers are.
If one of them is a Pietta Remington brasser, then the cylinder should work with the new SS target model for a quick reload.
If not, spare cylinders and a loading press can help to make loading multiple spare cylinders off the frame a quick and easy task at the range.
Some folks make their own cylinder loaders, but there are also some very nice commercial ones on the market that are well worth their price.
One is named the Tower of Power from Dick Dastardly at Big Lube dot com and Powder Inc. sells 2 different models.

BTW, what's the proof date code on the SS Remington?
I'm curious because at some point in past years Pietta was said to have slightly altered their grips and/or grip frame.

 

[snubnose57]

Pluggednickle, your brass 1851 is an accidental Scnieder and Glassick replica. Smooth cylinder, brass frame in .36 caliber. I have only seen one in my life, bought it on the spot.Fairly rare I the world of replicas.

 

[railshot]

I was curious about what make and models your other new brassers are.
If one of them is a Pietta Remington brasser, then the cylinder should work with the new SS target model for a quick reload.
If not, spare cylinders and a loading press can help to make loading multiple spare cylinders off the frame a quick and easy task at the range.
Some folks make their own cylinder loaders, but there are also some very nice commercial ones on the market that are well worth their price.
One is named the Tower of Power from Dick Dastardly at Big Lube dot com and Powder Inc. sells 2 different models.

BTW, what's the proof date code on the SS Remington?
I'm curious because at some point in past years Pietta was said to have slightly altered their grips and/or grip frame.

BZ is the proof mark on the stainless..... so that would make it a 2005, and my others, (Navy and New Army) do not match these new ones, but I think I will try to swap them to see what happens just for the heck of it later tonight.
I think I will check into a loading press, sure would be fun, and from what I have read after a couple of cylinders they need to be cleaned anyway, so a press would sure make it more efficient.

Still no contact from Traditions, but it has only been there one day.

and........ heheh, I think I may need an intervention or something.

Today I did a little "horse trading" and came home with this one below!
Another 1858 with target sights complete with spare cylinder and all you see in the pictures except the nipple wrench.
This one is almost perfect with no need to clean or wonder about it.

I know someone is going to ask, so here is the skinny on the trade.
I traded my Ulta Hi Kentucky flintlock that I was not all that fond of, and my Muzzle Loading Armoury Plainsman .50 cal. that all I did was redo the stain and finish on one weekend when I was bored.
Neither of these held any soft spot in my heart, and this was just too funny to pass up as I now have a blued and a stainless with target sights!
I knew someone down the road would have a use for them when I picked them up on the cheap last December, and I think we both did pretty good in the trade.
I am happy, and he seemed very pleased.

This one has a proof mark of CA, so it is a 2006
I really need to find a lighter backdrop for my pictures, or use a real camera like my Canon.... heheh, the old discarded LG Gflex cell phone still does pretty fair though.
I keep it down in the basement for when I am taking something apart, so I can document how it was before I mess it up.

 

[railshot]

Pietta cylinder note:
I tried my brass 1858 Navy cylinder with a CN (2015) code, and it went into my 1858 CA (2006) code like it was meant for it.
Each of them fit fine and function well mechanically in either configuration.....

 

[arcticap]

I pre-measure the powder charges at home and place them into pill bottles which makes it faster than measuring at the range.
Also use a cheap plastic funnel to not spill the powder when pouring it into the chambers while loading off the frame [Dollar Store].
A member sells many powder vial sizes and carry boxes to store them in too, but pill bottles are next to free if you can obtain enough of them and don't mind their size.
Most folks on forums simply contact him by email from his classifieds.
He's MLF member Lane Nebraska and has this classified ad:--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/50-cap-ball-pistol-loading-tubes-and-case.111301/

 

[drobs]

Railshot,

Now you need a Sheriff model NMA...

 

[railshot]

Railshot,

Now you need a Sheriff model NMA...

Heheh, or two!

 

[arcticap]

I came across an affordable loading press made by RMC.
Not easy to find in a search since RMC labels it as a "pistol loading stand" and not a loading press.
eBay item number: 264181703218

 

[railshot]

Well they have had it in their hands for 5 days now, no emails or phone calls about it.
I did email them asking for a status update 3 days ago, and no reply yet.

 

[arcticap]

I saw that for the original Colts, an outfit sells only the leaf spring part of the hand that commonly breaks as a replacement part.
But that's because new complete hands for the originals are not readily available and it allows people to keep the original hand installed in their antique.
As others have mentioned, bobby pins are sometimes used as a replacement spring and can last a long time.
I came across this video which shows 2 other ways to fix it, both by fashioning a piece of wire into a hand spring which can last indefinitely.

 

[Zonie]

Excellent video.
The only thing I saw that didn't make much sense was the comment at the very end.
I don't know why they said the hand spring had anything to do with the cap not firing. All the hand and its spring does is to rotate the cylinder. It has nothing to do with the power of the falling hammer.

I guess it was trying to imply that the hand didn't rotate the cylinder far enough or maybe it rotated it too far?

 

[arcticap]

Excellent video.

The only thing I saw that didn't make much sense was the comment at the very end.
I don't know why they said the hand spring had anything to do with the cap not firing. All the hand and its spring does is to rotate the cylinder. It has nothing to do with the power of the falling hammer.

I guess it was trying to imply that the hand didn't rotate the cylinder far enough or maybe it rotated it too far?

Zonie, I guess that J-Bar [who made the video] believes that if the handspring is too strong, that it can act in opposition to the hammer as it falls thereby slowing it down.
He says that's because the hand is retracting back down into the frame during that process of the hammer falling..
I think that's how he further explained it below when someone recently asked why their original 1860 Colt wouldn't bust caps after changing both the hand & hand spring [not original but reproduction parts] and a new mainspring unless the original mainspring was put back in, this was part of J-Bars answer:

"3. The hand spring may be too strong. I think this is the likely culprit. As the hammer falls, the hand is pulled back down into the frame. If the hand spring is too stiff it can slow down the hammer fall enough to cause ignition failure. The old style flat handspring is way stronger than it needs to be to keep the hand in contact with the cylinder ratchet. I replace the flat hand springs in my Italian reproductions with a piece of wire, and adjust the wire spring to just keep the hand in contact with the ratchet when the gun is pointed straight up. (If you point the gun straight down, gravity will pull the hand into the ratchet and you don't need a hand spring at all!). You can test whether or not the hand spring is causing a problem by leaving the hand out of the gun; will the new hammer spring pop caps if the hand is not present? If so, you may be able to lighten your present flat handspring a bit by thinning it, or by bending it a tad closer to the hand itself. Be careful, the darn things are brittle and snap easily. You should also make sure there is not a rough spot in the hand channel in the frame that the hand or spring might be catching on, which would also slow hammer fall. Some steel wool on a Q-tip might help smooth out the channel."

 

[M. De Land]

Zonie, I guess that J-Bar [who made the video] believes that if the handspring is too strong, that it can act in opposition to the hammer as it falls thereby slowing it down.
He says that's because the hand is retracting back down into the frame during that process of the hammer falling..
I think that's how he further explained it below when someone recently asked why their original 1860 Colt wouldn't bust caps after changing both the hand & hand spring [not original but reproduction parts] and a new mainspring unless the original mainspring was put back in, this was part of J-Bars answer:

"3. The hand spring may be too strong. I think this is the likely culprit. As the hammer falls, the hand is pulled back down into the frame. If the hand spring is too stiff it can slow down the hammer fall enough to cause ignition failure. The old style flat handspring is way stronger than it needs to be to keep the hand in contact with the cylinder ratchet. I replace the flat hand springs in my Italian reproductions with a piece of wire, and adjust the wire spring to just keep the hand in contact with the ratchet when the gun is pointed straight up. (If you point the gun straight down, gravity will pull the hand into the ratchet and you don't need a hand spring at all!). You can test whether or not the hand spring is causing a problem by leaving the hand out of the gun; will the new hammer spring pop caps if the hand is not present? If so, you may be able to lighten your present flat handspring a bit by thinning it, or by bending it a tad closer to the hand itself. Be careful, the darn things are brittle and snap easily. You should also make sure there is not a rough spot in the hand channel in the frame that the hand or spring might be catching on, which would also slow hammer fall. Some steel wool on a Q-tip might help smooth out the channel."

A remedy I developed many years ago for single action trigger return and bolt springs along with the hand springs was to replace the flat spring but with a stainless steel flat spring made from old Luftkin tape measure, recoil springs. They are very tough to work but once fashioned and shaped with a Dremel cut off wheel , I've never had one fail again, which is a common occurrence with carbon steel flat springs.
I do like the piano wire round stock for trigger return springs on Rolling block actions as they can be made very light and as stated are practically break proof.

 

[Redstick Lee]

Very nice! I'm rather fond of Uberti's INOX RNA's. I just happen to have a pair myself.
View attachment 6164
View attachment 6165

railshot and pluggednickel......love the 1858s.....here's one of mine, it's my baby

 

[M. De Land]

railshot and pluggednickel......love the 1858s.....here's one of mine, it's my baby

Is that real stag? Nice! I need to make some moose antler scales for a couple of my single actions as well. Did one on a modern double action revolver that was a lot of mill work but these single action scales should be quite easy by comparison.
Recently picked up some Zebra wood as well for fore end caps and hand gun stocks.

BZ is the proof mark on the stainless..... so that would make it a 2005, and my others, (Navy and New Army) do not match these new ones, but I think I will try to swap them to see what happens just for the heck of it later tonight.
I think I will check into a loading press, sure would be fun, and from what I have read after a couple of cylinders they need to be cleaned anyway, so a press would sure make it more efficient.

Still no contact from Traditions, but it has only been there one day.

and........ heheh, I think I may need an intervention or something.

Today I did a little "horse trading" and came home with this one below!
Another 1858 with target sights complete with spare cylinder and all you see in the pictures except the nipple wrench.
This one is almost perfect with no need to clean or wonder about it.

I know someone is going to ask, so here is the skinny on the trade.
I traded my Ulta Hi Kentucky flintlock that I was not all that fond of, and my Muzzle Loading Armoury Plainsman .50 cal. that all I did was redo the stain and finish on one weekend when I was bored.
Neither of these held any soft spot in my heart, and this was just too funny to pass up as I now have a blued and a stainless with target sights!
I knew someone down the road would have a use for them when I picked them up on the cheap last December, and I think we both did pretty good in the trade.
I am happy, and he seemed very pleased.

This one has a proof mark of CA, so it is a 2006
I really need to find a lighter backdrop for my pictures, or use a real camera like my Canon.... heheh, the old discarded LG Gflex cell phone still does pretty fair though.
I keep it down in the basement for when I am taking something apart, so I can document how it was before I mess it up.

View attachment 6233

View attachment 6234

 

[M. De Land]

I have one of these I bought over 30 years ago and is my most accurate revolver. It's more accurate than my ROA.

 

[PluggedNickel]

Pluggednickle, your brass 1851 is an accidental Scnieder and Glassick replica. Smooth cylinder, brass frame in .36 caliber. I have only seen one in my life, bought it on the spot.Fairly rare I the world of replicas.

Hum, you may be right. I read this article about them I found after reading your post. Mine was on sale at Taylor's about 11 years ago. It came with a spare cylinder as well. Advertised as REB 1851 Navy. The spare cylinder is the same as the one on the revolver.

http://rprca.tripod.com/Schneider.html

 

[M. De Land]

Hum, you may be right. I read this article about them I found after reading your post. Mine was on sale at Taylor's about 11 years ago. It came with a spare cylinder as well. Advertised as REB 1851 Navy. The spare cylinder is the same as the one on the revolver.

http://rprca.tripod.com/Schneider.html

I got a spare cylinder with my target 58 Rem also but it shoots to a different point of aim then the one in the gun does. I have worked mine over extensively but it's a fine shooter now. Reamed all the cylinder throats the same with a line bore spud, replaced the trigger and tuned the pull to 1.5 lbs with no creep, re-cut the forcing cone and fire lapped the barrel to get rid of the tight spot under the threads where it comes through the receiver.
If I had it to do over I would hand lap the barrel instead of fire lapping as it ruined the forcing cone which had to be re-cut. It should be hand lapped while still in the receiver to get it correct for the reason it is tight is because the receiver threads have choked down on this thin part of the barrel.
Open frame guns such as the 51 Colt have no such issues with barrel choke from frame threads. I believe open frame guns are every bit as accurate as the close framed guns but the sighting methods available to them do not allow the accuracy to be manifested.
All Colt single action guns are better natural pointers than most others which lends them better to point/instinct shooting, in my opinion.

 

[PluggedNickel]

Have you tried capping your nipples on the 1858 RNA's yet? Most cappers won't work on them.
I have a Ted Cash snail capper that may work, but I've never tried it. A Thomson Center in line capper will fit. See pictures below.