pietta 1851 timing ?

[dave61965]

looked a traditions pietta 1851 revolver today and noticed when the cyl. locks up when cocked you can look down the barrel and see it just a hair out of time, gun is like new maybe never fired, its the "old silver" model, is this a something i could fix on the workbench or should i pass ?

 

[tenngun]

pass.Any work you do would void any warrenty

 

[M. De Land]

Do you mean alinement instead of timing? MD

 

[dave61965]

well im not sure of the correct term, when its cocked the cyl. is locked up tight but look down the barrel and its a little out of line with the cyl.

Do you mean alinement instead of timing? MD

 

[M. De Land]

Yeah, that is called alinement. Timing is the sequential relation between the hand,hammer and bolt drop on the way to final lock up.
The best way to see alinement is to get a goose necked auto light and look down the muzzle of an empty gun barrel and view the chamber mouth in relation to the bore at each lock up position. This will show you chamber/barrel alinement even better than will a range rod guide.
It's very similar to looking through and aperture sight as any miss-alinement will show up immediately.
I have never seen a production revolver with perfect alinement modern or old, some are pretty close though! Mike D.

 

[MacRob46]

I have seen lots of revolvers both BP reproductions and modern style which were perfectly aligned. I even own several. Having the cylinder slightly out of alignment, while not dangerous, may cause some lead to be shaved from the ball around the forcing cone. In cases of extreme misalignment you may find smears of lead on the outside of the forcing cone or even on the side of the barrel. The misalignment maybe be due to the cylinder not being bored properly. It can also be a problem with the cylinder stop bolt. If the cylinder stops short of the locking up point before the bolt is firmly seated and you can rotate it a bit further by hand, then you have a timing problem, which can be fixed - it is usually an improperly adjusted cylinder hand but of course you say it is locked up tight when you observe the mis-alignment. No matter what it is, if this is a brand new gun then I would either get the manufacturer to fix it - if it is under warranty - or get it to a competent gunsmith for repairs. Of course, since your post seems to indicate that you just saw this, not that you own it, my comments will hopefully help someone who has bought a gun with that issue.

 

[dave61965]

I have a pietta 1858 with the original bp cyl, and a 45colt conversion cyl and they both line up perfect, so i figured something bad had to be out whack on the 1851, its out bad enough to shave lead for sure, think ill pass on it, shame though it sure was purdy!

 

[M. De Land]

I'll bet you a Dr Pepper I can show you miss-alinement in every production revolver you own with a goose neck auto lamp and a little knowledge of how to use it!
One can see miss-alinement that a range rod will drop right on past and tell you it is perfectly alined.
Custom jig line boring is the only way to get perfect alinement and cost accordingly.
The other thing about production guns is that seldom are all the chambers the same diameter or even perfectly round as they are gang reamed and the reamers have individual wear tolerances.
It is really quite amazing that revolvers are as accurate as they are with most having less than stellar alignment. Mike D.

 

[BowerR64]

I had one that was off and each cylinder was different, sometimes i could see the edge of the chamber on the left, next chamber the top next the right side each chamber was different. It was like looking at the different phases of the moon.

There are other things that can cause it to be off as well as the bolt timming.

If the arbor is short and the frame at the bottom isnt square with the barrel it can shift the barrel over a little also can shift it up. Mine shot WAY high till i fixed it.

IMO thats why these 51s are the cheapest year reproduction. You can work out all the bugs but it takes time and knowing what to do to make it better.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Do you mean alinement instead of timing? MD

FWIW, the correct terminology is "locked-in-battery"

 

[MacRob46]

I will bet that you can't find that with any of the revolvers in my safe. Every revolver I have bought, new or used since 1978, was carefully checked for alignment by me before it was purchased. The one I did not check because it was handed down to me, was my grandfather's S&W service revolver, carried when he was a police officer. I do not plan to fire it any way, it is just a family keepsake. I will check it today. I did not say that every revolver is always in perfect alignment just that I have never seen one that wasn't. I started checking alignment thirty-five years ago when I bought a used Dan Wesson that had a cylinder hand problem. Prior to that I guess I just lucked out.

 

[Pistoleer]

I have a Pietta 1851 Navy that was the same way. Looking down the barrel it was very evident. I had to get a new cylinder bolt stop and do some filing and fitting, (to much to mention here),to get it right. PITA.

 

[crockett]

pass. When you say a hair out of line- same on all cylinders? In order words the cylinders could be okay but the bolt lock up is off.

 

[dave61965]

yes all the cylinders looked to be off the same amount.

pass. When you say a hair out of line- same on all cylinders? In order words the cylinders could be okay but the bolt lock up is off.

 

[CaptainKirk]

This is why revolvers have a forcing cone.

 

[Arrowheadmaker]

Yeah that's what is happening to my 1851 navy.
I think its a bolt problem.
The problem only happens when I cap it, I have to press the caps on with the hammer, very careful
and then the cylinder will turn fine, through
all the cylinder.

I think its a bolt line up, problem.
With no caps it cycles fine.
I just don't know if the bolt is to
long or short ?
Thanks Robin47

 

[bpd303]

You don't have a bolt problem but a cap/cone problem, if you have to seat the caps with the hammer. The caps are dragging on the recoil shield because the cones are too long or the caps fit too tight. Correct that and everything will be fine.

 

[Arrowheadmaker]

Didn't think of the recoil shield.
That could be right, as I used the Rem #10 caps
and they work good, but when I use the Italian #11
caps,they hang up more.
Yes I do have some Italian caps I got a Long time ago. I think they are thicker to.

Thanks for the Info I'll check it out !
Robin47

 

[M. De Land]

It would take a long time to tell about the various miss-alinement problems it some of the most well know revolver makers guns. Some are more important than others but each contributes to an over all accuracy aggregate that is addressed in custom accuracy work and not expected in a production gun.
Another simple test is with a feeler gauge to check width on either side of the cylinder/ barrel gap. Most any production gun will show one side tighter than the other. This is miss- alinement generally and is because the base pin axis in not perfectly parallel with the threaded barrel hole through the frame.
Most production revolvers will also show a tight bore under the threads in the frame barrel hole. This is often from the thin shank of the barrel being torque choked when being indexed to top dead center in the frame. And the list goes on. MD

 

[crockett]

Well I'm trying to figure out a way to check things.... If you have a rod of any sort that is smaller in diameter than the bore- can you slide it down the bore and test the sides of the chambers. Let's say, looking down the barrel from the muzzle end, when you slide the rod down the right side of the bore it hangs up on the chamber wall but it passes ok when you run the rod down the top, bottom, and left of the bore. I'm just thinking here and hopefully others will contribute, but maybe the cut that the bolt passes through is off. If the bolt locks up ok, the shape of the bolt is fine, you need to move it a little to one side. See if there is a manufacturing burr on the opening for the bolt.
The burr might be the most logical since the manufacturing process for the chamber locations, etc ought to be the same from gun to gun. The location of the opening in the frame for the bolt ought to be the same from gun to gun. Some sort of burr could have moved the bolt to one side, causing the cylinder to turn a little far or short and cause the slight misalignment.
You might have to remove a little material on one side of the cut for the bolt. If that creates too much of an opening- then peen a little on the opposite side- but as I said, if you are still in the buying stage of things- unless the price is very low- I'd just look for another gun that lines up ok.
Since the lockwork is the same as any Colt Revolver (Cowboy 1873 Peacemaker) Maybe you could search the net for a gunsmith that works on Colts and ask him about the problem.