Pietta 1858 .44 cal, amount of filler?

[ballandcap]

I was out shooting my Pietta 1858 .44 cal today and was going to try and get the perfect filler/powder load. I thought I had Cream of Wheat so I didn't bother to check until I was on my way out the door this evening to shoot. I grabbed some Bisquick which I thought would be good, but was not. Well it is very light and fine and fluffy and kept clogging the funnel and when compressed it seemed to smash too much do to it being fine and light. I would say Cream of Wheat would be much better and easier to work with. I will use this for trying to take a Javelina next weekend. I will be using 25 grains of Pyrodex "P", this load seemed fairly consistant. Would 20 grains be more consistant and enough to take and animal or should I stick with 25 grains?

Can anybody tell me the difference I would need to add of Cream of Wheat for filler? I will go back out tomorrow and experiment, but I would hate to get too much and not have the ball seat properly. I am hoping someone has the same gun and has measured filler to help me. If not I will post tomorrow what I come up with. Thanks all!

 

[DanChamberlain]

I use 30 grains of fffg in my Pietta "58" and no filler at all. 2" groups at 25 yards and plenty of power. If I'm hunting with a gun, it's getting a full load. The gun will easily take 30 grains of black, Pyrodex or 777. I don't recommend fillers for anything but target work.

Dan

 

[Robert an saa fan]

First, let me preface by saying I am no longer a hunter. However, I have shot a lot of .44 caliber cap and ball revolvers over many years.

Suggest you do not use any filler. You want as much energy as possible on Javelina per hunters/authors I have read like Sam Fadala.

If using Pyrodex, put the most you can into the chamber while leaving room to seat the ball and compress the load a bit.

Depending on your Pietta .44 you may be able to get 35 or more grains of Pyrodex P in the cylinder's chamber.

Recommend you practice with this load so you know where it hits at your various possible hunting distances.

 

[ballandcap]

Good advice about no filler, about everything I have ready was to get the ball seated as close the the end of the cylinder as possible. With even 30 grains of FFFG the ball is still very recessed. The Manual says 20-30 grains, I assumed 30 grains was the max load. As far as fitting as much as I can, I could probably fit 45-50 if I had to guess but would think that would be dangerous? I seemed to be a little more consistant and accurate with 25 grains vs. 30, but could have just been in my head and maybe flinching. Thanks for the input guys, I will shoot some more tomorrow with 30 grains and forget about the filler.... thank goodness!

 

[DanChamberlain]

ballandcap

There are a lot of "myths" floating around about all things cap and ball. Truth is, most of them are things a certain person found to be true, which eventually becomes universal.

For optimum accuracy, it has been determined that it is a good practice to seat the ball as close to the mouth of the chamber as possible.

At the same time, my Pietta 58 will shoot honest 2" groups at 25 yards with 30 grains of Pyrodex P without fillers and with the ball seated on the powder somewhat recessed from the chamber mouth.

If you want the ball seated a bit closer to the chamber mouth, the only "filler" I would use would be an Ox-Yoke wonder wad over the powder.

I have a .36 Navy Pietta in which I load 20 grains of 777, an Ox-Yoke wad and this gun shoots like a target revolver! There is not a squirrel in the woods who is safe from 15 yards and if I want to guarantee a head shot, I need only wait till he reaches 10 yards!

Experiment and you will find that truth may come to you unexpectedly and in different increments than it has for others.

The advice you've received here about not using fillers is good advice.


Dan

 

[mykeal]

There's an issue here with accuracy. It's often stated that seating the ball as near the forcing cone as possible is an enhancement to accuracy (I can't personally vouch for that, but it makes sense to me and I have nothing to refute it with). It's also fairly well known (although some don't agree) that the majority of bp revolvers are less accurate when shooting heavy, as in full chamber, loads (this I go agree with having tested my revolvers and found it to be true in every case).

Shot placement is pretty much agreed to be the most important thing when hunting, followed closely by hotly debated variables like velocity, energy on target and bullet expansion.

It would seem to me that you'd want the most accurate load you could get with the highest muzzle velocity your gun can produce; that way you'll know that it will actually hit where you're aiming at the range you're shooting.

With all that in mind, loading for the best accuracy and using a stable filler like Cream of Wheat to raise the ball in the chamber (if necessary) is the best answer.

 

[texcl]

Javelina are not as big and tough as most make them out to be. Most Javilina shot around the ranch I grew up on were killed with a single .22lr round through the vitals or in the head at close range. I don't think you would have any problems with that load. Make sure you get all the musk glands out right there on the spot and bleed it, unless you like skunk flavor and smell. I prefer to shoot them behind shoulder.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I have hunted feral hog w/my '58 Rem. I use a 7.62X39 caseful of 3F (AK or SK case) as a fairly hot load and I load slugs from the Lee conical mold. the chamber will hold more powder but I found that groups open up.
I load a felt wad overpowder to keep the greased slug off the powder and it also takes up space bring the slug up in the chamber.
I did take a small (field dressed out at 112 lbs) hog with one shot that hit the neck bone behind skull shooting from a ground blind near a bait hole.
one of my nephews was in the blind w/me with his H&R 20ga loaded w/3" Mag #4 buck - just in case.
good luck w/your hunt.
anyway one of you javelina hunters could post fotos of cleaning one of those? I've read that young ones properly field dressed are good eating.
but then other hunters said that even coyotes won't eat one left laying dead in the boonies. due to they smell bad.

 

[crockett]

Mykeal: I don't mean to disagree but I've had different experience with cartridge guns like the 44 Magnum. I higher I go on the charge the better the accuracy. I think Elmer Keith said he had the same experience BUT lots of variables- I shoot a Model 29 S&W and so did Keith- other guns may be different.

In any event I think you are in the majority on the accuracy, most folks say the most accurate loads are not maximum loads but I don't think that holds in all cases. On the smaller calibers- 357 Magnum, etc the heavy loads don't seem to improve accuracy- I have only found it on the 44 Magnum and 45 Colt.

For Hunting, I'd think maximum charges would be best provided they increased velocity, if some of the powder is burning up after the bullet already left the muzzle (if that is possible?) then it would seem pointless. What about bullets for better penetration?

On the wads- I think they have give better accuracy than using filler.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I would test both a 25 grain loading with 2 wonder-wads and a 30 grain charge with only one wonder-wad.

I own an 1858 Remington NMA (Uberti) as well as a '58 Pietta stainless buffalo with the 12" tube. The son likes the 25 grain load in the Uberti, and I use a 35 grain load with a wonder-wad in the buffalo to great success at novelty shoots. The cylinder will hold a 35 grain charge regardless of the barrel length or the manufacturer.

I would consider 25 grains to be one of the smallest charges in that model, mainly due to the length of the rammer on the Remmy. It's not as long in it's stroke as a Colt's, due to it's design. In some respects, I consider this a flaw of the design itself.

Accuracy in these revolvers is obtained only when most of the variables are taken into account and dealt with to eliminate them. One of these variables is the quality of the charge itself. How much the charge is compacted and the depth of each ball is important. I always pre-measure all of my charges prior to going to the range. I always use a custom-built loading stand. This gives me an edge because I get a more uniform and thorough seating of each ball in every chamber. When tested on a chronograph, the chambers with full seating delivered a higher velocity with less deviation--and tighter groups resulted.

In designing a hunting load, I would stick to full-power loads and range test to see where they print and then shoot accordingly.

Good luck with your shooting!

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Mykeal: I don't mean to disagree but I've had different experience with cartridge guns like the 44 Magnum. I higher I go on the charge the better the accuracy. I think Elmer Keith said he had the same experience BUT lots of variables- I shoot a Model 29 S&W and so did Keith- other guns may be different.

In any event I think you are in the majority on the accuracy, most folks say the most accurate loads are not maximum loads but I don't think that holds in all cases. On the smaller calibers- 357 Magnum, etc the heavy loads don't seem to improve accuracy- I have only found it on the 44 Magnum and 45 Colt.

For Hunting, I'd think maximum charges would be best provided they increased velocity, if some of the powder is burning up after the bullet already left the muzzle (if that is possible?) then it would seem pointless. What about bullets for better penetration?

On the wads- I think they have give better accuracy than using filler.

I too am the proud owner of an original Model 29, since '79! I used to be able to hit a paint can at 100 yards a few decades ago.

You brought up a great analogy, and it fits well into my last post on this thread. So, here goes: While I'm on the subject of bullet jump: one of the reasons why Elmer liked the magnum rounds was that they are longer than the .44 spl, which has to "jump" into the forcing cone, just like an under-powered C&B round. The shorter cases were partially to blame. If you try loading a round to spl. velocity using the longer case at a lower pressure you might find it to be just as accurate or more so than the full-house magnum. Elmer also designed his own, longer heavier slug, the 250 grain Keith-style bullet for his long-range work. A witnessed 600 yard kill shot on a deer is well written about. Shot placement wasn't perfect, and they did have to chase after it, but 600 yards with I think a 4" barreled revolver :shocked2: .

My transgression into the "modern" world is now over, for the time being. I only mentioned the above as a way to illustrate that some things ballistic NEVER change. Please pardon me...

Dave
Owner of an original "Do you feel lucky, PUNK" S&W Model 29

 

[Dphar]

I was out shooting my Pietta 1858 .44 cal today and was going to try and get the perfect filler/powder load. I thought I had Cream of Wheat so I didn't bother to check until I was on my way out the door this evening to shoot. I grabbed some Bisquick which I thought would be good, but was not. Well it is very light and fine and fluffy and kept clogging the funnel and when compressed it seemed to smash too much do to it being fine and light. I would say Cream of Wheat would be much better and easier to work with. I will use this for trying to take a Javelina next weekend. I will be using 25 grains of Pyrodex "P", this load seemed fairly consistant. Would 20 grains be more consistant and enough to take and animal or should I stick with 25 grains?

Can anybody tell me the difference I would need to add of Cream of Wheat for filler? I will go back out tomorrow and experiment, but I would hate to get too much and not have the ball seat properly. I am hoping someone has the same gun and has measured filler to help me. If not I will post tomorrow what I come up with. Thanks all!

I never used filler in a C&B revolver.
Fill the chamber with FFFG till the ball will seat just below the chamber mouth with consistent, mild, compression of the powder.

Dan

 

[rafterob]

I have shot mine with and without filler and can't tell the difference. That being said, for target shooting I use filler because I am using maybe 18 grns pyrodex P and the loading lever didn't seem to be compressing the ball down enough.The best advice on filler I gleaned was to just fill the remaining cylinder depth with your filler, put the ball on top and compress it down with the lever. I have done the same with powder, I think it comes to 30 grains maybe 35 I don't remember, it is a good stout load!. I would go for the 25grain load for your little wart hog shoot, that will give you plenty of power yet still be quite managable.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

the load I use is about 28gr of 3F useing the X39 case as a measure. placeing a felt atop then a Lee slug places the lubed slug about 1/16th" from the chamber top.
there is room for more powder without the felt.

 

[swinehart]

I have a Pietta 1858, 44 cal. brass framed revolver.
I use 30 grains fff, wad, 15 grains Cream of Wheat, ball.
I was hoping to try it on a whitetailed deer this year but didn't get a shot.