Pietta or Navy Arms LeMat... Same?

[MysteriousSmith]

Hello, I’m new to the forum and black powder arms and energized to get going. In addition to the 1851 Navy (I like the history, design and calibre), I’m intrigued by the impressive if imperfect LeMat. Question: I’ve seen both a Pietta and Navy Arms LeMat for sale. I understand that Pietta made guns for Navy Arms. Was these years of manufacture synonymous? Is one’s quality deemed better and is it really dependent upon the manufacturing year(s)? OK, that’s actually three questions but thanks for all replies!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Yep, same same. Navy Arms was just the importer.

The LeMat is a good stopper with 9 rounds on tap plus devastating shotgun blast secondary ability. They are also pretty reliable.

BUT a Navy model is going to be much more user friendly and parts are much easier to find, and anyone can take them apart. The LeMat is quite the beast and whole nother can of worms. Most agree the LeMat is not the best choice for a first time cap and baller, but the Navy very much is so.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Smokey Plainsman, I am going to make a wild guess here. I believe that you might mean that an 1851 Navy model open type Colt replica would be a better choice for a first time cap and ball percussion revolver shooter. I would agree with that and suggest that the revolver be steel framed and 36 caliber.

Yes, Navy Arms was the importer of a Pietta manufactured LeMat replica revolver.

 

[MysteriousSmith]

Thanks for both replies. I agree with your assessments. 1851 Navy definitely is my first choice to get going. I’m actually looking for the US Grant Commemorative Set. At some point - with experience and more funds - the LeMat would be a desired addition. But I’m not kidding myself, as Smokey Plainsman noted, “quite the beast.” Its engineering for the time astonishes me. I’ve only seen videos of it being loaded, disassembled and shot. - MS

 

[Enfield58]

I bought a Navy Arms LeMat when it first came out. Here's my experience with it. After the bugs are worked out, it's a fantastic revolver.

The literature that came with it and all the gun writers stated to use .451 round ball.

I did that and the loading lever would bend on about the third loading. I contacted Navy Arms and sent it to them for repair. When I got it back, the loading lever would bend again.

Another call was made to Navy Arms. I explained to them that I was an experienced black powder shooter; especially with C&B revolvers. I sent the revolver back to them and when I got it back, I measured the chambers.

What I found was that each chamber was .444 inches right at the face of the cylinder. Now also keep in mind that when I took the measurements deeper into the chamber, the diameter got progressively smaller. I can't remember how much smaller but it definitely got smaller.

So right at the face of the cylinder there was .007 inches of lead getting shaved off. With a Colt or Remington revolver, that would not have been a problem.

The LeMat loading lever, on the other hand, is a steel sleeve with a steel rod inserted that is used for loading the shotgun barrel. So a LeMat loading lever isn't as strong as a Colt or Remington revolver. That's why it would bend with a .451 round ball.

So I switched to a .445 round ball. My load is 20 grains for FFFG with a 50/50 mix of beeswax and vegetable oil over the ball. Don't go over 20 grains.

I attempted to increase the charge to 25 grains and got a couple of chain fires. There were a couple of possible reasons for this.

1) I tried using the paper cartridges with the ends lubed with the beeswax/oil mixture. The amount of lubricant over the ball wasn't as much as if I had applied it using a finger or Popsicle stick. So there may have been less lube preventing a spark from entering the chamber.
2) The 5 grain increase was enough to place the ball closer to the cylinder face. With the slight imperfections in the ball, this may have been enough to create a gap for a spark to enter the chamber. Remember that the chambers have a slight taper. So a lighter charge would have resulted in a tighter fit because the ball would be seated deeper.

I went back to loading 20 grains of FFFG and applying a generous amount of lube over the ball. Since then, no more chain fires.

Some people may have had good experience using the recommended .451 round ball. I don't doubt what they say but I've put a lot of .445 round balls through the revolver. With the aforementioned problem as the exception, I haven't had any trouble with the LeMat.

As for the shotgun barrel, I use a 3/4 ounce load of shot. I use to just use paper for wadding but since I got a Pedersoli 20 gauge shotgun, I started using the card and felt wads, soaked in vegetable oil. You will find the recommended charge of 25 grains very anemic.

I use a powder charge of 40 grains in the barrel with 3/4 ounce of buck shot. Past about 10 yards the patterns are pretty wide. Perhaps other shooters can provide better recommendations for the shot load in the LeMat.

I would highly recommend the LeMat revolver. The only caution would be is to measure your chambers to determine what diameter ball to use before shooting it.

 

[MysteriousSmith]

Wow Enfield58, I really appreciate this intel! I’m saving your response and will refer to it as a “voice of experience;” the best kind of teacher. Thanks for the detailed response! Very helpful.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Just make sure your chambers aren't undersized compared to the groove to groove.

That will reduce accuracy. They can be reamed out safely tocure rhe issue on Colt and Remy, but depending on if it needs it and how much, there might not be enough meat in the LeMat cylinder.

 

[Enfield58]

Just make sure your chambers aren't undersized compared to the groove to groove.

That will reduce accuracy. They can be reamed out safely tocure rhe issue on Colt and Remy, but depending on if it needs it and how much, there might not be enough meat in the LeMat cylinder.

I've done exactly that for the Remington and Colt. However, there isn't much to play with on the LeMat. I just measured the thickness of the wall between the chambers on all three of my revolvers:

LeMat ---------.030"
Colt -----------.0545"
Remington ---.062"

As you can see, the wall thickness between chambers on the LeMat is thin to begin with.

Regardless of what the owner's manual says whoever buys the LeMat should measure the chamber. Even though I'm not a gunsmith or metallurgist, I would not be taking any materiel away from the cylinder on a LeMat.

I don't have any photos of any groups of my LeMat but I haven't had any problems with accuracy out of the revolver with a 20 grain powder charge. Besides. you are guaranteed to hit your target with the shotgun barrel at handgun distances

 

[MysteriousSmith]

Just make sure your chambers aren't undersized compared to the groove to groove.

That will reduce accuracy. They can be reamed out safely tocure rhe issue on Colt and Remy, but depending on if it needs it and how much, there might not be enough meat in the LeMat cylinder.

I’m new to BP. Can you please expound upon “groove to groove” or direct me to a proper source. I enjoy reading too. Thank you.

 

[Zonie]

He is talking about the diameter at the bottom of the rifling grooves.

Ideally, the size of the loaded bullet or ball will be the same size or .001 to .002" larger than the bottom of the rifling grooves. That allows the ball or bullet to make full contact with both the rifling grooves and the bore.

Most of the modern reproduction cap & ball pistols come with the chambers sized slightly smaller than the diameter of the rifling grooves. This can lead to some inaccuracy of the gun.

 

[MysteriousSmith]

Got it. Thanks much; did some refresher reading and makes perfect sense. See what years away from shooting does?! Appreciate all the help.