Pistol for deer hunting?

[hou5ton]

Being new to muzzleloading, and not finding ballistics like are available for centerfire rounds (and I understand why that can't be done with black powder, with everyone's load being different), ... however, I am wondering if there is a black powder pistol caliber/load that is acceptable for whitetail deer hunting? And if so, at what range would be a safe kill range, ... or perhaps what centerfire round might be comparable. Finally, if deer hunting with a black powder pistol is a crazy idea, feel free to say so. eace:

thanks,
larry

 

[Rebel]

Well, first you better check and see if it is even legal to hunt deer with a BP pistol in your state. If it is, then i would suggest a .54 Lyman Great Plains pistol or something similar and keep your shots to 25 yds or so. JMO

 

[hou5ton]

It should be legal, ... the regs simply say: "Muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms .40 caliber or larger capable of firing only a single projectile "

I don't want to do it if it would border on foolishness because of a lack of bullet velocity or energy, but it just seemed like a interesting thing to consider.

I'm hunting with a 44 mag pistol and really enjoy that, but there's a lot of distance between that and anything that would come out the end of a black powder barrel. Still, I thought I would ask in this forum to see if anyone actually does deer hunt with a black powder pistol, or if it was a reasonable thing to consider.

You mentioned keeping shots to 25 yards, ... which is certainly possible, but 50 would be nice.

 

[Don]

If you want to hunt with a traditional pistol than Rebel's advise is excellent. If you're not concerned about tradition than there are a few manufacturers that make powerful inline ML pistols that will give you more choices in terms of projectiles and load size. As with any pistol hunt, getting close and placing your shot is critical.

Don

 

[Zonie]

The following is based on some guesses, and real numbers based on them.

If you get a .54 cal pistol and your shooting a 229 grain ball the following numbers will apply.

If the pistol has about a 10 inch barrel and you load about 45 grains of FFFg under a patched .535 dia round ball, you should be able to get around 1200 fps out of it. IMO, because of the limited pressure black powder develops, larger powder loads than 45-50 grains will add some flash and bang, but not much velocity.

If the muzzle velocity is at 1200 fps, at 25 yards, the velocity will be 1042 fps with an energy of 590 ft/lb. At 50 yards the velocity will be 991 with 503 ft/lb of energy.
IMO those should be deer killer loads if you hit the heart/lung area.

If you use a .50 cal pistol with the 179 grain roundball, with about 40 grains of FFFg, the velocity shoulld be about the same 1200 fps as above.
The 25 yard velocity will be 1064 ft/sec at 25 yards with 446 ft/lbs of energy. At 50 yards the velocity will be 978 ft/sec with an energy of 376 ft/lb.
IMO the 376 is getting very marginal for deer.

A .44 cal pistol like a 1861 Colt or 1858 Remington has a max load of about 30 grains of powder. The muzzle velocity for these is around 820 ft/sec with 209 ft/lb of energy.
At 25 yards the velocity will be about 761 ft/sec with 180 ft/lb of energy.
In my opinion, none of the C&B guns (short of a Walker or 1st, 2nd or 3rd model Dragoon) would be adaquate for hunting deer even at point blank range.

 

[[email protected]]

..............IT is slaughter time here in WEST VIRGINIA.
Farmers and me too! are killing 450 lb hogs with .22 long rifle with 100 ft.-lbs energy.....course we shoot em in the head..... sometimes at 20-25 yds......I guess it is not the caliber that does the trick .......but where you place the shot......HUH????
I dont really know....I am just a dumb hillbilly farmer....
WV SCROUNGER........

 

[Maynerd62411]

In Illinois, you have to use a muzzleloaded pistol. Blackpowder revolvers are not allowed. I believe .50 cal is the minimum cal. allowed. Of course, Missouri has different requirments. :results:
We used to put down steers with a .22 magnum. The USDA actually has a written regulation allowing "small caliber" firearms to butcher cattle, hogs,etc.

 

[BrownBear]

With your own experiences using the 44 mag, I'm sure you are aware that most of the results are dependent on your judgement and skill, rather than number tables. Take your time, get in a good shot in the right place, and the results will be right.

As for specifics, I haven't shot any deer with a BP handgun, but I have shot truck loads of them over the years with handguns (We have had a 5 deer limit for most of my 30 years hunting up here, and a high proportion of mine fell to handguns). I've taken them successfully with revolver and pistol cartridges including 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 9mm, 40 S&W, 41 Mag, 44 Special, 45 LC, 44 Mag, and a host of heavier stuff shot through scoped single shots.

Outside all indications of "paper" ballistics, two of the most effective revolver rounds were the 44 Special and the 45 LC, the former with a 240 grain hard-cast SWC and the latter with a 250 grain hard-cast SWC. Velocities never topped 800 fps, but because they were cast hard, I also never recovered a bullet. Ranges varied from 20 to 50 yards. Penetration was through and through, all lung shots. Experimenting a lot, the quickets kills came with bullets having large, flat noses.

How does all that translate to BP and RB loads? Energy will be similar at hunting ranges with either the 50 or 54, but I'm suspicious of both their round shape and soft lead, at least for getting through-and-through penetration. I'm not saying they won't kill like lightning, perhaps due to expansion, but I will have to shoot a few before I can relieve my suspicions about full penetration and perhaps learn if it is even needed.

All this won't answer your questions one way or another, but it should give you plenty to think about- enough I hope to keep your ranges conservative and your aim true till experience teaches you a whole lot more. I like the velocity numbers Zonie is citing in terms of killing power inside 25 yards, but I'd wear my best tracking glasses for following up longer shots till you have more experience.

 

[harryo]

In Illinois, you have to use a muzzleloaded pistol. Blackpowder revolvers are not allowed. I believe .50 cal is the minimum cal. allowed.

You are correct. Also, Illinois requires that you use no smaller than a .44 projectile and the pistol be loaded to produce a minimum of 500 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. Finally, you can only use a muzzleloading pistol during the late season firearm season. This is the 2nd weekend of January and was formally the pistol only season but his year you can use any legal firearm to fill a permit for that season. This means you can carry a muzzleloading pistol, as well as your muzzleloading rifle during that season.

 

[mowolf]

The actual MO regs. state that a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearm .40 caliber or larger and capable of firing only a single projectile at one discharge; inlines and sopes are allowed.

Multiple-barreled muzzeloading or cap-and-ball firearms and/or muzzledloading or cap and ball handguns .40 caliber or larger are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball rifle.

I carry a .50 Mt pistol and .50 Kentucky in addition to either the .50 TC Hawk or the .45 Investarms Hawk.

Best to be "prepared <VBG>.

Waya :m2c:

 

[Gun_Runner]

A .44 cal pistol like a 1861 Colt or 1858 Remington has a max load of about 30 grains of powder. The muzzle velocity for these is around 820 ft/sec with 209 ft/lb of energy.
At 25 yards the velocity will be about 761 ft/sec with 180 ft/lb of energy.
In my opinion, none of the C&B guns (short of a Walker or 1st, 2nd or 3rd model Dragoon) would be adaquate for hunting deer even at point blank range.
[/quote]

Those are interesting numbers. Do you have any idea as to what the original pistols were producing back in the mid 1800s - just wondering :hmm:

 

[Zonie]

As near as I can tell, the modern replicas are the same as the originals.
Dixie Catalogs have some very interesting tables in the back of them.
One of these in a 1980 catalog lists the original and replicas as being the same.
The loads for a few guns are:
.44 Colt Dragoon .453 ball, 40 grains FFFg
.44 Colt/Remington Army .453 ball, 28 grains FFFg
.36 Colt/Remington Navy .376 ball, 22 grains FFFg
.31 Colt/Remington Pocket .321 ball, 15 grains FFFg

They didn't give the .44 Colt Walker load but I think it was around 45-50 grains of FFFg.

The 1847 Walker and the 3 slightly later models of Dragoon pistols were intended to be carried in saddle holsters, and they wanted enough power to knock down a horse.
Anyone who has handled one of these guns (or it's replica) knows even John Wayne couldn't have carried one of these in a holster on his hip for more than 1/4 mile.

IMO by the time the Army choose a .44 in 1860, they wanted something smaller, lighter and easily carried in a hip holster even at the cost of some power.
After all, a man or horse who is put out of action is the prime idea with the military and a .44 pistol will do a fair job of that.


If you see one of these older Dixie Catalogs at a gun show or in a used book store, buy it! It has a lot of information that never changes. Just don't look at the guns they used to sell, and definitly don't look at the prices they once cost.
It's hard to read the tables when tears are in your eyes.

 

[Rat]

It was my understanding that a fully loaded C&B revolver produced about 1000fps...but maybe not??

Anyhow...you might be able to get out to 50, but that would be with at least a .54 I would think, and a "stout" load, and perfect conditions and all that.

I personally prefer round ball...but if you were seriously considering 50 yards with a pistol I'd consider using some kind of slug...at the much lower pistol velocities a slug would retain some more energy, and could be pushed as fast as a ball without any extra flash-n-bang. !! A friend of mine used to have a single-shot, cap-lock pistol in .45 that shot a slug very well. I don't remember if it was a maxi-ball or what. I seem to remember it being a hollow base minnie type slug...but that could be wrong. LONG time ago.

I always thought that Harper's Ferry pistol in .58" would be fun to hunt deer with...and would be my first choice.

All things considered...I think that if you are going to hunt with a BP pistol, you should just accept about 30-35 yards as your maximum range, under perfect conditions. I can see where it might be a fun thing to do. I'd definately think things out very carefully.

Rat

 

[Walker357]

David S, if you have any Devericks in your blood line send me an e-mail.