Pistol for hunting

[Thejeepster]

I have noticed that in my states hunting guide they say I can use a black powder pistol as a back up to my muzzleloader rifle.

Do you know if this is only a single shot muzzleloader or does it also include cap and ball revolvers?

 

[dave61965]

Be safe and call fish and game or ask your local warden, I know in tx. it means single shot muzzleloader pistol, I says no revolving cap and ball pistols.

 

[bpd303]

Cap & ball revolvers are allowed. Page 40 Exceptions 06.03.
http://www.agfc.com/enforcement/Documents/agfc_code_of_regulations.pdf

Any caliber muzzleloading handgun or (cap and ball) percussion revolver is
permitted to be carried when a legal muzzleloading long gun is in hunter's
immediate possession

 

[phoenix511]

A ML pistol is not much of a backup.

Keep in mind 17th to most 20th century pistols were weapons of last resort, close range, enough to discourage/stop an attack, not for hunting game.

At best, most deliver at the muzzle about the kinetic energy of a 38 Special to a 45 ACP. Consider the game you are hunting ... and I know lots of whitetail have been felled with a 22LR.

Some see a ML pistol as a back-up for a rifle, but I would suggest, having shot at an animal like a deer, it is prudent to wait, thus allowing time to reload the rifle. I don't know that a pistol would have been of any value.

As others said, check your state regulations. Some allow C&B revolvers, some don't. A messy court appearance and lawyer fees could cost alot.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Disagree big time Willie. A MUZZLE LOADER pistol such as the 1855 Springfield repro is as powerful or more so than many smaller caliber rifle loads.

Besides unmentionable muzzle loader pistols which can beat 357 mag power, there are also side lock traditional guns that pack substantial wallop.

Cap and Ball revolvers do have limitations based on the size of the chambers. But even they can be hot loaded with fake powders and compact conical bullets.

The major limitation for such pistols is the lack of practice and lack of proficiency by the shooter. In hands of a seasoned pistol shooter a muzzleloading pistol can be a primary weapon on deer to 40 yds. Unfortunately, many who carry such pistols for hunting could not hit an outhouse from the seat. There is a hunter here in PA that has shot several deer with a Bounty pistol as his only gun.

Some side lock guns are hampered by lighter wall barrels that require smaller limits on loads, but there is no reason some of the larger bore pistols aren't suited for hunting

 

[M. De Land]

The trouble with those comparisons is kinetic energy values have no real relation to killing power is dissimilar projectiles.
A round ball out of a .44 caliber revolver fully loaded will kill all beyond proportions of what kinetic comparisons to a .38 special or .45 ACP would suggest.
They were designed to kill horses as well as men and they did yoemans service on both in the War of Norther Aggression.
A soft lead ball ambling along at 1000 fps will splay out and kill amazing well at short range. Mike D.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hunting with typical muzzleloading gear, and carrying a hogleg and it's gear is a pain, and in most cases a waist of time.
A well aimed shot, with a few minutes wait, is ample time to reload your rifle for a follow up shot if needed.
See Track's speed loaders. Great for follow up shots.
Fred

 

[rodwha]

I talked to a game warden here in TX asking about the use of my ROA. He told me that I most certainly could carry it as a backup to my muzzleloading rifle, but could not use it as a primary until the regular season as it's not a muzzleloading firearm.

 

[Roguedog]

I have to respectfully disagree with you just a bit. I don't believe you can really measure the effectiveness of a round ball's killing power by using kinetic energy figures. When you can take a .45 cal roundball and send it in one side and out the other, you have a pretty effective weapon. I agree with others that the primary issue with folks using blackpowder pistols for hunting is their inability to shoot accurately. I don't use my revolver as a primary hunting weapon but more as a weapon of opportunity. I feel strongly that within my effective range of 25 yards that I can place the ball where it needs to go and that it will fully penetrate a whitetail deer. I also limit myself to only broadside shots and try to avoid heavy bone. A muzzleloading pistol can be an effective hunting tool when used within it's effective range and provided you can hit what your aiming at.

Jeff

 

[zimmerstutzen]

In the past two years, our PA Game agency has gone from treating cap and ball revolvers as muzzle loaders, to being illegal as non muzzle loading firearms, to being centerfire legal for deer only in the regular firearms season.

Every state has their own peculiarities which can be very extreme.

In a few states, no muzzle loader handguns may be used for hunting. In others nearly any hand gun that utilizes black powder is legal. Here in PA, regulations for the muzzle loaders state that they must be single barrel and for most of the state, only flint, percussion or primer ignited muzzle loaders are legal for deer. ie. no match locks, wheel locks, no rim fire ignition, etc.

 

[Roguedog]

Here in Tennessee we can use any blackpowder handgun or rifle firing a projectile of .36 caliber or larger. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. But, I will stick by my original statement. If you can put a .45 cal projectile in one side and out the other of a deer, you've got a reasonable effective weapon. I believe that I can do this within my personal effective range of 25 yards. My woods carry load in my 1860 Army is around 35-40 grains of powder under a .45 cal ball. While this load is not a powerhouse by today's standards, I still believe it is a capable round for close range, accurately placed shots.

Jeff

 

[BrownBear]

...the primary issue with folks using blackpowder pistols for hunting is their inability to shoot accurately.

Old time handgunner talking here, and I'm in 100% agreement. I hunted exclusively with handguns for over 20 years before I got into muzzleloading rifles. In that span I also competed a lot and was a certified instructor. Newcomers to pistols could learn pretty quick with a 22, but as recoil went up even a little, their accuracy went south fast.

Only way to get good is to shoot, and shoot lots. Most guys won't make the investment in time, effort and ammo. They doubt themselves and their shooting, so when it comes time to buy a "backup" gun for their modern rifles, they buy even bigger calibers with even more noise and recoil. Somehow "bigger is better" trumps really rotten shooting in their little pea brains.

Can't resist telling one modern story before moving on back to cap and ball. One of my shooting mates did alright as I schooled him over several weeks using my guns starting with a 22. Things got sketchy when we moved up to 44 special. He literally couldn't hit the 3'x3' target backstop at 25 yards when we moved up to 44 mag. So what does this brainiac do when it was time to buy his own gun? Bought a 4" 500 S&W!!!!! He'd owned it 6 months and carried it on several hunts before I ever got him out to shoot it. He fired exactly one shot, losing his grip and allowing that big pistolla to fly over his head and land in the rocks behind him. To my certain knowledge he's never fired another round through it, yet he's proud to carry it for "backup" and is quite vocal in his criticism of anyone who carries anything less for backup! :rotf:

If a guy's going to carry a C&B for "backup," I have no doubt it's going to be more capable than he is until he puts in a whole lot of shooting time with it. But there's a catch. Don't just go to the range and fire a carefully aimed shot, wait for the smoke to clear, then fire another. Shoot fast, as though your life depends on it. And shoot through all that smoke, just like you'll be doing when your life depends on it.

 

[Roguedog]

Agreed. In general, I shoot my small bore pistols a bit more accurately than my large bore ones. Sometimes, when you know your gun is going to kick you like an Army mule, it's hard to not anticipate that recoil and still be able break the trigger cleanly. This is why I practice a lot. Lucky for me, I enjoy shooting and invest a lot of time in it. In regards to my 1860 Army, recoil is almost non-existant. That gun will also just keep stacking those shots into the same hole. It truly is a joy to shoot. I can put six shots into a snuff can at 25 yards fairly easily. I also like the period of time when after I shoot a cylinder, I get to sit down and slowly reload. Kind of helps aid in the relaxation portion of it all.

Jeff

 

[don hepler]

I am no expert and haven't read the law. But I have carried a pistol as a backup, not for the purpose of shooting a deer, but for coyote, turkey, etc. in circumstances, where it is legal. And perhaps in a situation where a deer is down, to be used as a "coupe de grace", to avoid, unnecessary suffering. However this is the first year, here in Virginia, where a black powder pistol will be allowed to actually, hunt and take deer. In some instances, other game is legal, during the deer hunting season. In the past, here in Virginia, it has been illegal to have a pistol in your position, while hunting deer during the muzzle loading season, (with the exception of a legal concealed carry, in areas where it is allowed). But if you used your black powder rifle during,centerfire rifle season, you could legally carry any pistol with you. I know.....you need to have an attorney with you. Just saying..........

 

[Patocazador]

A ML pistol is not much of a backup.

This deer would have been very happy if your statment were correct.
Killed with a Ruger Old Army, 30grs. 3F and 255 gr. flat nose cast bullet.

 

[phoenix511]

Before hunting with any blackpowder/muzzleloading firearm, I'd suggest reading the hunting regs of the state where you intend to hunt and most are available on line.

In MN, the 2014 Hunting and Trapping Regulations states "Legal Firearms (including handguns) for Big Game" specifically prohibit "muzzle loading revolvers" (don't know where they got this description, but its a quote from the regs). They allow muzzleloading smooth-bores at least 45 cal, and rifled bores at least 40 cal, also legal is at least 220 cal with center fire ignition.

So go figure: in MN your replica Derringer, and your Browning 25 ACP are legal for big game but your Colt Walker is not.

FWIW, the MN regs do not address a primary and/or back-up firearm. You can hunt small game during the deer season, and implied is you can use a C&B revolver ... but you better not have purchased a deer license, even if you are not carrying it, and even if you are on your own land.

 

[cynthialee]

Even if you can hunt with pistols in your state they may have other requirements.
Like here in Washington State, if you want to hunt with a pistol it has to have at least a 40 grain charge of powder.
{of what? 3f, 2f, 1.5f...? doesn't say}

 

[F.G. Ford]

To Cynthialee:
40 grains of bullseye powder :shocked2:
That should make your gun shout!
Fred

 

[Dphar]

A ML pistol is not much of a backup.

Keep in mind 17th to most 20th century pistols were weapons of last resort, close range, enough to discourage/stop an attack, not for hunting game.

At best, most deliver at the muzzle about the kinetic energy of a 38 Special to a 45 ACP. Consider the game you are hunting ... and I know lots of whitetail have been felled with a 22LR.

Some see a ML pistol as a back-up for a rifle, but I would suggest, having shot at an animal like a deer, it is prudent to wait, thus allowing time to reload the rifle. I don't know that a pistol would have been of any value.

As others said, check your state regulations. Some allow C&B revolvers, some don't. A messy court appearance and lawyer fees could cost alot.

Properly loaded a ML pistol in FL or percussion is an effective deer killed to 40-50 yards. If the shooter is up to the job.
With 60 grains of FFF a 54 flintlock with a 9-10" barrel will make 1000 fps at the muzzle this is not a popgun.
A 6" 50 caliber FL pistol with 40 gr of powder will drive a ball through a deers chest from side to side even at an angle with significant muscles to pass through. It will pass through an Antelopes chest and through a big plume of dirt up in the Sage beyond. This load made 800 fps. A 54 with more powder, 70 grains in this case probably making 1000 fps at the muzzle, will break major bones like the humerus, break ribs and still take out the vitals and go to the far side under the hide.

I have done all these things over the years. A 50-54-58 pistol loaded to 900 fps is just as effective at pistol ranges as a rifle of similar caliber is at 100-120 yards.
I would also point out that at the ME most ML arms operate at ME is greatly overrated as a means of judging killing power. A round ball of the proper diameter for the game, for say 50 +- caliber for deer, need only have adequate penetration. 800 fps will give adequate penetration for deer.

All the ML pistols mentioned here have 66 to 70" twist barrels and will shoot into 2-2.5" at 25 yards. But if planning on using hunting loads careful consideration of the trigger guard design. I recommend the TOW "Hawken" pistol TG with the finger hook cut off or one very similar if shop built.
This is a 58 I built for a friend a couple of years back. He says he would not hesitate to shoot an elk under 50 yards with it.

Dan

 

[Zonie]

I know you were joking but please don't mention (even jokingly) the use of any smokeless powder** anywhere around a muzzleloading firearm.

There are people new to the world of black powder and muzzle loading and there might be a few who don't know you were joking.

Needless to say, a load such as you mentioned would probably kill the person who loaded it in his muzzleloader.

**This is especially true of a powder such as Bullseye which has been known to blow up high strength modern firearms with just a slight overload.