Pitting in Damascus

[Supercracker]

In you guys experience, how much pitting in a barrel can be polish/honed out and what would be an acceptable level?


Thinking about picking up a couple of Belgian Damascus shot barrels that are "lightly pitted" to breech and use for a FL build in the future.

 

[Dave K]

Almost an impossible question the answer. I am not trying to be difficult, but when does light pitting, become moderate pitting, become severe pitting? As far as polishing the bores, to remove all the pits, is just making the barrels even thinner. First I would start with a good gunsmith, that truly knows Damascus barrels (few do!). He should be able to determine how deep the pits are and if honing to clean the bores of pits, will really be something you want to do.

 

[Supercracker]

Actually, I was hoping to find out that there was some kind of accepted scale or grading system. haha

on another note. For the money ( >$50) I might just get it, hone it and see if it proofs.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Actually, I was hoping to find out that there was some kind of accepted scale or grading system. haha

on another note. For the money ( >$50) I might just get it, hone it and see if it proofs.

Hone them evenly and then have Bob Hoyt line them. Otherwise, I'd leave them alone. Sorry....

 

[robinghewitt]

The trouble with rust pits in damascus is that they go down between the skelps and go deep real quick. Personally I'd cork the muzzle then fill the bore with oxalic acid to remove all the rust then see what you've got when the pits are empty 24 hours later. It might be horrendous but at least you'd know.

If you leave the rust place in as a convenient pit filler you will forever pull rust when you clean it. It is tough stuff, probably many years old because it started life at the very bottom of the pit then extruded out like toothpaste squeezed from a tube. Hard to polish rust.

If you start reaming you may find thin strips tearing out leaving little semi-circular depressions. Oxalic removes rust and nothing else.

 

[Leonredbeard]

Robin, great reply.

Supercracker, I have said it before, don't subject that great old set of barrels to proof loads. If you can't determine that it is safe without proofing don't shoot it. Your proof load could be the shot that will cause the barrel to burst later with a normal load. Just my humble opinion.
volatpluvia

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Back in the 50's and 60's one could buy plain, "shootable" percussion doubles for 20-25 bucks at any gun show. My dad had one given to him by a brother and he hunted pheasant with it a couple of years. One day he let a friend shoot it at a can thrown in the air and the fellow let out a holler and began examining his left hand. A rust pit had blown out and driven rusted metal into his skin at the base of his left thumb. There was a hole in the left barrel about the size of a single pellet of #6 birdshot that had blown out right under the man's hand.
I am very, very leery of old original shotguns. Although they may look good on the outside, as my dad's gun did, by far the most of them are eaten up with corrosion at the breech end of the barrels. What you don't know can very definitely hurt you.
And I do agree with Volatpluvia about proof loads for old barrels.

 

[thewho66]

Even the best of the barrels out there can be pipe bombs. I cringe everytime a friend brings his side by side out to shoot. It looks great inside and out, but one day in might let go. Ive asked him to get it lined and he insists it fine. I hope not to have to take him to the hospital one day. Currently the gun is out of action due to a crack stock and he is taking his time getting a new one.

John

 

[robinghewitt]

How times have changed :idunno:

Americans used to be fearful of any shotgun that was not damascus. If it has "Twisted Stubs", "London Fine Twist" or similar on the top rib then you know it was made for export to America. Bob Spencer has an early Colt shotgun with a faux damascus pattern printed on the barrels.

I have a Westley Richards sn:3503 with a damascus breech wall thickness of 1/8". It's nitro proof and shoots sub-sonics nil problemo.

 

[Dave K]

I am with Robin. If you seen some of the early fluid barrels, you would know why anything but Damascus way back when, was subject scrutiny. Back in the 80's, Remington had a huge recall on 870 barrels that were made between certain ser. no.s. I know, I had one that I got money for from Remington.

 

[thewho66]

I find here in the states that guns were well used and in some cases rode hard and put away wet so to speak. The problem with twist style barrels is you can not just look down the bore and say its fine to shoot. On the other side of the pond you see above averge guns that people shot less and took better care of. Because it was for sprt more than putting food on the table. That may not be the rule but I feel that our guns were used more and for food getting and that is the real problem they could have taken good care of the gun but more use will weaken the barrel over time. There are very few guns here that look like they are new as to what you folks see even military guns before the civil war.

 

[robinghewitt]

If you think it has rotted out then fill the bore with oxalic acid for a day and have a look see. Estimate that the holes go as deep as they are wide.

The rust pits go down between the skelps and try to force them apart so the pits tend to be banana shaped. I have a vague theory that long thin bananas are bad, short fat bananas are good. The shape may indicate the integrity of the iron. Pic shows short fat bananas in a flint rifle breech, oxalic has revealed all.

There are plenty of rotten old ML shotguns in the UK. Pristine bores usually come with a pristine gun and add considerably to the price ticket. Bores without a gun is usually either a rotten stock or fire damage. You may get lucky :grin:

 

[Supercracker]

If you think it has rotted out then fill the bore with oxalic acid for a day and have a look see. Estimate that the holes go as deep as they are wide.

This won't damage the good portions of the bore??

I have a Westley Richards sn:3503 with a damascus breech wall thickness of 1/8".

accidentally found a set of 'W Richards" (they're probably Belgian fakes but that still works for me)barrels and action (no wood, triggers, or locks) with "pristine bores"

From the pics it looks like that's an accurate description. But we all know how pictures can lie. Regardless, for this money I had to try

 

[robinghewitt]

This won't damage the good portions of the bore??

All it will remove is the rust. This can leave gaping holes where the rust used to be but at least you know. When I did that bore in the pic I flushed it through with Ambersil 40 plus, which is a highly penetrative rust blocker, then waxoil then let them fill up with BP residue. There may be better choices, I was just guessing, but I haven't pulled red since.

If the only things keeping the gun together are rust and the woodworm holding hands then it could affect the 'value' of the piece :grin:

 

[Supercracker]

The story I'm getting is a grandfather who was a retired gunsmith passed away and left behind boxes and boxes of unfinished projects. Grand kids are just now selling off old stuff. Within one of these boxes was a set of "W Richards" barrels still on the action but nothing else. Nice looking engraving, no rust visible, bores look good.

If it turns out to actually be in as good of shape as the pictures look like I'm half tempted to find some back action locks and restock it as is. ESPECIALLY if it turns out to be a genuine Wesley Richards and not a counterfeit.

 

[Dave K]

Look at the bottom of the barrel, near the breech. If you see an ELG, the barrels anyhow were made in Belgium. That does not make it a bad gun! If the gun fits you well and you just plain like it. Fix it and use it

 

[robinghewitt]

If it said Wesley Richards then it would definately be a fake, Westley has a T in it :thumbsup:

Could be William Richards, not to be confused with William Westley Richards who was Westley Richards father. There was also a brother/uncle Theophilus making guns.

Westley would have given you a serial number you could look up on his website.
http://www.westleyrichards.com

 

[Lorne Johnson]

As Squire Robin says, the real Westly Richards would give a serial number, and his full name. The W. Richards designation makes it very likely the barrels are Belgian. Again, if they are in good shape, that's not really a bad thing. Would you rather have unusable, dangerous Joseph Manton barrels, or pristine J. Manton Damascus barrels with a generation or two of use in them?

 

[Supercracker]

It says W. Richards.

That's what raised my eyebrow too. When they get here I'll have a closer look and if it warrants it I'll get on the double gun boards and look into it more.

90% sure they're Belgian though. But, as you said, that's fine with me. A Walnut Blank and some Manton copy flintlocks await!

 

[paulvallandigham]

The Suggestion to have liners put into the barrels is a very good one, IMHO. Modern Steel liners will take the relatively low pressure of today's BP shotgun loads, while leaving the original Damascus pattern on the outside of the barrel undisturbed. Mr. Hoyt does excellent work with installing liners, BTW. I just examined a rifle my brother owns that has been lined by Bobby Hoyt, after the old iron began to peel off strips of lead from the lands in the barrel.

That is another problem with some of the old guns- metal fatigue. Even after years of storage- as opposed to hard use--- you can't expect that old iron or early steel to continue to hold up. Smoothbores don't have the same problem as rifles, but old metal is still old metal. The thickness of the barrel at the breech is NO assurance that the metal is strong.

A Friend of mine restored a family Heirloom L.C. Smith shotgun, that originally had damascus barrels, by having the late Oscar Gaddy make new barrels and liners that fit inside the first 4 inches of the barrel at the breech. Oscar told me that it was the most difficult work he has ever done, and he had no intention of ever doing that kind of job again. I saw the gun shoot, and handled it. It was front heavy- a duck gun--- but it matched the balance and weight of the original gun, according to the owner.

More important to the owner, he now had an heirloom that could be passed on down to his son, years from now. After he has years of shooting with his grandfather's gun, knowing that the gun is safe to shoot, it will be safe to shoot when his son gets the gun.