Pondering Shot...

[Sparkitoff]

Some of the shot in a ML will have to touch the barrel walls on the way out which will deform it. Conventional wisdom says that the bottom of the shot column will get compressed more than the top portion of the column. Then some will be deformed as they are forced through choke. Additionally, the longer (or taller) a shot column is, the more deformation takes place among the shot. The British figured out a balanced game load a long time ago. Typically, 1 -1 1/8 ounce of shot for 12-gauge, 15/16-1 ounce in 16b, 7/8 in 20b..blah blah. There's a lot of reasons a lighter load within a certain bore often patterns better than a heavier load. However, all this rhetoric stems from analysis of shot cartridges. Some attempts to address this are hardened shot, plated shot and cushion wads with various attributes.

So with a ML shotgun, the most common "conventional wisdom" here is a "square load" or the old saying "Less powder, more lead - shoots farther, more dead" (or something like that). I've been thinking about this lately. Does my first paragraph apply directly? Indirectly? Not at all - or partially? I guess hardened or coated shot never hurts. But in the ML, there are more pellets touching the barrel and allegedly a harder force upon ignition that in theory would upset either more shot in the bottom of the column, have a greater effect on the shot at the bottom of the column or both.

Everyone knows only the shot pellets that survive in a smooth round shape end up in the bulk of the pattern - with the deformed pellets varying more and more as distance increases. So how do we keep the most amount of shot in the pattern with the ML? Since the ML is directly affecting more pellets in the shot column, is it prudent to use more shot to make up for the loss? There are proponents of cushion wads and those that just use cards. Both seem to have good results. However, I haven't been able to equate these results with equal amounts or kinds of shot. Maybe one does help with or beyond a certain weight load of shot; or beyond a certain amount of powder - by sparing more pellets that ultimately contribute to the major pattern?

Another ponderance: if a larger shot size has a larger area of its surface damaged through firing and there's less of it to begin with, could it be better to use smaller shot?

The only thing between that flying bird and me is the pellets - so I've been thinking about them a lot lately.......

 

[Britsmoothy]

Without trying to be rude.......I just get on with it.
I've pulled dimpled pellets frome game and I've pulled flattened from the bore side pellets from game but one thing I have observed, the same pellets from a muzzleloader are alway less deformed than pellets that have had nitro behind them! Fancy wads or not. Even plastic wads don't fully protect pellets. In fact, there is no such thing as a cushioning wad, just a marketing thing called cushion wad!

 

[PathfinderNC]

Missed that one because my shot was all deformed

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So with a ML shotgun, the most common "conventional wisdom" here is a "square load" or the old saying "Less powder, more lead - shoots farther, more dead" (or something like that). I've been thinking about this lately. Does my first paragraph apply directly? Indirectly? Not at all - or partially?

Well my flintlock smoothbores are all cylinder bore, so..., no choke no deformation from the choke.
Next..., the deformation would be present in a modern load too, especially since modern powders are accelerating the shot in a shorter period of time thus amplifying the inertia impact..., ah but the modern loads use "cushion shot cups" which protect the shot from the sides of the barrel and reportedly mitigate inertia deformation.... which then leaves only choke deformation for the modern guys...

What if we used modern cushion shot cups?

SO..., was that saying formed before felt or fiber wads became the norm when hunting with shot? So a wad of paper or tow likely won't help inertia deformation but does the fiber wad help at all? How well does cork work?

What about the folks that load a second fiber wad, atop the shot column and report improvements in patterns? Why doesn't the forward motion of the shot column deform the shot at the front which is resting against the second fiber wad (which give some initial resistance)?

Next..., is modern shot the same as the shot that was being used when the principle was first formulated? I think that modern shot is slightly hardened with just a hint of antimony, so would resist some deformation.

What if one uses copper plated shot ? Not recommended for many BP barrels but folks use it as sometimes it's all they can get. That is harder than pure lead...,

LD

 

[Ponderosaman]

I don’t think that deformed shot is responsible for bad patterns. Hevishot brand shot is very deformed and patterns very well. Apples and oranges maybe, but I agree that less powder helps with patterning. As for wads, they may help. The pattern of my muzzleloader is more uniform than my modern shotgun. I don’t know if it’s the wads, because I haven’t shot without them. I have heard that the plastic ones in muzzleloaders don’t work well, but I don’t have any experience with them. There’s a fallacy that happens a lot in hobbies - the more work you put in, the better your pattern or accuracy or whatever else you are trying to achieve. There is also the opposite fallacy, the easiest, quickest way that works is the best way. They weren’t dumb back in the 1800’s and probably took a lot of time experimenting empirically with shotgun loads. Is there some documentation of guys who took the time to experiment and write down what they used?

 

[hunts4deer]

My wife and I hunt squirrels with flintlocks with our daughter who uses a modern shotgun. When we clean the squirrels we can always tell the ones shot with modern shells. The pellets from the modern gun are always very deformed. The flintlock shot squirrels have pellets that have no deformation, or very, very little. We don't use any shot cup. We use the Skychief Special (lubed fiber wad on top of shot.) So I don't think there is any effect of rubbing along the bore to worry about. In my Hudson Valley 12 gauge I shoot 80 grains FFg or FG powder and 90 grain measure of #6 shot. My wife's 20 gauge uses 65 grains of FFG and 70 grain measure of shot.

 

[smoothshooter]

Well my flintlock smoothbores are all cylinder bore, so..., no choke no deformation from the choke.
Next..., the deformation would be present in a modern load too, especially since modern powders are accelerating the shot in a shorter period of time thus amplifying the inertia impact..., ah but the modern loads use "cushion shot cups" which protect the shot from the sides of the barrel and reportedly mitigate inertia deformation.... which then leaves only choke deformation for the modern guys...

What if we used modern cushion shot cups?

SO..., was that saying formed before felt or fiber wads became the norm when hunting with shot? So a wad of paper or tow likely won't help inertia deformation but does the fiber wad help at all? How well does cork work?

What about the folks that load a second fiber wad, atop the shot column and report improvements in patterns? Why doesn't the forward motion of the shot column deform the shot at the front which is resting against the second fiber wad (which give some initial resistance)?

Next..., is modern shot the same as the shot that was being used when the principle was first formulated? I think that modern shot is slightly hardened with just a hint of antimony, so would resist some deformation.

What if one uses copper plated shot ? Not recommended for many BP barrels but folks use it as sometimes it's all they can get. That is harder than pure lead...,

LD

The copper plating on most shot pellets I’ve looked at is so thin that it can’t be much help in improving patterns.
Maybe there is some variation in the quality of plating from one manufacturer to the next that might make a difference.

 

[3Setters]

I shoot light loads and dont have problems with my patterns. I'm only shooting 7/8 ounce loads from my 12 gauge. And this is also where cornmeal can help out, acting as a buffer against deforming shot.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Rifle projectiles are spun into a rotation, giving them gyroscopic stability as they fly. The chief problem with shotgun shot, is that it does not have this stability, so it is essentially a knuckle ball being thrown. A year or so ago, I picked up two bags of reclaimed 7 1/2 shot, it was all that was available, and I've used about 25 lbs of it on targets and on birds in dog training. It's been at least as effective as 7 1/2 magnum shot, so it's functionally patterning quite as well.

This week, I went out with a friend to hunt pheasant (at a preserve). I was loading 1 ounce of 6's copper plated, and they worked very well. But, my preference for copper 6's is because I can immediately tell it apart from lead 7 1/2's, without putting my glasses on.

 

[sheriff john]

Used to be "hardened" shot available. Maybe still is, haven't bought any in a long time. One of my Lawrence brand shot bags says "hardened" on it. None of my smoothbore shotguns are choked. All about 30 yard guns, a couple of originals look like sewer pipes inside, but all-in-all, if I choose my shots, they'll kill stuff.

42" flint fowler throws the tightest patterns, but hitting anything flying is really hard. Old-timey "Alcan" wads work best for me, broken in half, shoved down atop each other. They taste bad, but wallerin' in the mouth makes them easier to load.