poor boy /barn gun lock???

[Stophel]

It takes nearly the same amount of time for a gunsmith to make a "cheap" gun as a good gun. In the 18th century, guns were not something you could buy with a week or two's pay. :wink:

Wartime emergency production is, perhaps, different. Every second counted. Make it go "bang" and get it out the door and start on the next one. Each gun done meant one more John Bull dead. Cost of labor was probably not near so much a factor (since they might not be getting paid at all anyway...).

 

[JOHN F]

stoph- time was definitely a factor in wartime... check out neumanns book and you will see some comittee of safety guns with a cut dowen triggerguard just the bend and essentially flush mounted...no inletting saved voocoo time....

 

[streetsniper]

if 'barn gun' is not historically accurate, where does the term 'shimmel' fit in? I see them used interchangeably.

 

[Stophel]

Nowhere, really. It's a modern term apparently just pulled out of the blue by Chuck Dixon.

I really don't think you start seeing barn guns until the early 19th century, when gun barrels (and locks) are becoming more readily available and cheaper, making a barn gun actually economical to do. These seem to be pretty well limited to the Berks/Bucks/Lehigh areas in PA. No buttplates, no sideplates, literally lock, stock and barrel. I am told some don't even have triggerguards. The stocks are rough, and oversized. Coarsely finished...if they are finished at all. They go "bang" and that's it.

In earlier periods, comparably plain guns would be seen as quickly-assembled militia/army guns, as discussed. Also, you will find some really plain smoothbore guns, primarily from New England in the 17th and early 18th centuries. Basically, I think this comes from the fact that these gunsmiths were working from a different gunmaking tradition. The English made a lot of rather plain, even crude, guns in the 17th century...nothing like what they are known for in the mid 18th century and later. :wink:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Nowhere, really. It's a modern term apparently just pulled out of the blue by Chuck Dixon.

I really don't think you start seeing barn guns until the early 19th century, when gun barrels (and locks) are becoming more readily available and cheaper, making a barn gun actually economical to do. These seem to be pretty well limited to the Berks/Bucks/Lehigh areas in PA. No buttplates, no sideplates, literally lock, stock and barrel. I am told some don't even have triggerguards. The stocks are rough, and oversized. Coarsely finished...if they are finished at all. They go "bang" and that's it.

In earlier periods, comparably plain guns would be seen as quickly-assembled militia/army guns, as discussed. Also, you will find some really plain smoothbore guns, primarily from New England in the 17th and early 18th centuries. Basically, I think this comes from the fact that these gunsmiths were working from a different gunmaking tradition. The English made a lot of rather plain, even crude, guns in the 17th century...nothing like what they are known for in the mid 18th century and later. :wink:

That pretty well nails it in my opinion. :thumbsup:

 

[BillinOregon]

Mike: Your "Librty" gun is a thing of great and simple beauty. What a talent you have!

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike: Your "Librty" gun is a thing of great and simple beauty. What a talent you have!

Thanks! :redface: Fun gun to build. I'm considering doing a small series of these as I can do them fairly cheaply. (by my standards :haha: ) I figure maybe something like this can get some folks into a custom gun that they couldn't otherwise afford.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Grab you Pulmotor :bow: :rotf: - I also agree.

People today have to begin to remember that we have a 300 year+ history of these flintlocks, and now a 200 year history of Percussion guns. A lot of changes occurred in that period of time. Terminology now used is of recent origin- not always something that dates all the way back to the first quarter of the 19th century, or earlier. There is Nothing wrong with "inventing" labels, or terminology today to describe what gunmakers are now making available to shooters- but shooters should not be confused about the origins of the terms, just as they should not mistake the Steel used in today's barrels for the iron used in Barrels before 1840. Nor should today's steel barrels with the steel available for use in barrels between the Civil War, and WWI. Much change and improved in the business after WWII( 1945)

E.Remington is credited, I believe, with being the first entrepreneur to make a single product- gun barrels-- in a factory setting, which he then sold either as blanks, or as rifled barrels to gunmakers, at a price cheaper than it would cost the gunmaker to make the barrel himself. He started his business in the first decade of the 19th century.

Locks were already being purchased from England, Germany and other European sources, and used by gunmakers to build muskets, and rifles. Remington simply introduced that manufacturing system to the States, and was successful. It would not be until the Springfield Armory, and then the armory at Harper's Ferry began to make quality locks that you saw real competition with European lockmakers for the trade here in the states. The Development and use of Water Powered machinery in Connecticut's Gun Valley led to the beginning of a factory gunmaking business in the US. It would be years, of course, before independent Gunmakers were to face real competition for business from factory made, complete firearms. As is obvious, the practice of gunmaking has remained both a " hobby " and a small business for lone builders every since. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

E.Remington is credited, I believe, with being the first entrepreneur to make a single product- gun barrels-- in a factory setting, which he then sold either as blanks, or as rifled barrels to gunmakers, at a price cheaper than it would cost the gunmaker to make the barrel himself. He started his business in the first decade of the 19th century.

There were specialized barrel makes in Colonial America long before E. Remington was a twinkle in his Pop's eye.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't deny that there were. But, they weren't making them in a factory setting, to keep the cost to a bare minimum, so that they could be sold to gunmakers, instead of being used by the barrel maker to make guns.

 

[Mike Brooks]

The Pennypackers come instantly to mind. They were a late 18th century barrel making family. Had a specialized water powdered barrel factory in the late 18th century. I have had several old guns come through my shop with Pennypacker barrels on them.
The name had various spellings. Pennabacker Pennapacker etc......
If all the gun experts and historians that used to hang out here weren't r-u-n-n-o-f-t they could probably provided you with several other 18th century barrel factories.

 

[BrownBear]

I've always wondered about the origin of the term "barn gun." Reminds me of "canoe gun."

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have heard of the family, but using one of the other spellings. It makes it very difficult to do research when there is so little information available about even the correct spelling of the name. Then, what research is available often does not tell you a location, so you know that you are reading about the same family or firm. Grrrrr.

I am sure that there were others, but they were short lived, and did not have the volume sales that Remington was able to achieve to keep his business going. If you go to the Remington Website, you can read the history. :hatsoff:

 

[Stophel]

Pfannenbecker.

:wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Any idea how the first two syllables are pronounced? And, one has to wonder if the "f" is really an "f", or was it mistaken for a serif "S" in some original writing. There are a lot of PS words, usually of Greek origin, but such spellings are found throughout European names.

The second half of the name is also suspect, being more an English spelling, than dutch or german. In the latter case, you would expect it to be "boeker", or bacher, or "bocher"or even "baker"( another English derivation.)

 

[Stophel]

It is pronounced exactly the way it is spelled. You say the "P" and you say the "f". Just as with "Pferd" or "Pfeil" or "Pfeiffer" or "Pfarrer" or "Pfennig".

:wink:

In modern High German it "should" be "bäcker"...but it's pronounced the same as "becker".

"Ä" is the only umlaut vowel that English speakers can pronounce without much difficulty and practice! :grin: "ö" and "ü" are VERY difficult!

German is a MUCH more phonetic language than English. Though there are variations, words are still pronounced exactly as they are spelled, and spelled exactly as they are pronounced. There is no "i before e except after c...except for here, and here, and here..." or "when two vowels go walking, the first one does the talking...except for here, and here, and here...".

 

[Okwaho]

I've always wondered about the origin of the term "barn gun." Reminds me of "canoe gun."

I have been looking at and studying long rifles for about 48 years now :bow: and it's only been recently that shimmels,barn guns,canoe guns and blanket guns have entered our vocabulary.The term "Poor Boy" might be a wee bit older but probably not much.Brown Bess trade guns have to be in there also.After all how can you be a true honest to God ranger without a cut back bess or an officer's model bess? :surrender:

I have to stop now,I'm running out of pearls.
Tom Patton

 

[BrownBear]

I kinda figured barn gun was a modern invention. Funny you don't see people howling and throwing tantrums about it like they do canoe gun, though. Human nature at work. :shake:

 

[tg]

One thing that keeps the gun students worked up is that after a/many long threads about these modern names and info that obviously covers the topic someone,( usually someone envolved in one of the above threads) starts a post asking about canoe or Barn guns,it reminds me of my crews and the Osha pamplets I would put together from the larger books provided by the state, these were aimed at issues specific to our type of work, I swear that I would give them the books and they would eat the pages :cursing:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have always heard the word, Pfennig" pronounced "Fen' nig ", the "P" being silent, as it is "Pneumonia". Thank you for the instruction.