Portuguese Arquebusiers in the 16th century

[Lost in Sarnau]

Here in Thailand, I've discovered that the Portuguese visited here in the 16th century. I'm interested in putting together an "impression" of an Arqubusier in service of Alfonso de Albuquerque.
Two questions for starters: did they used "apostle" bandoliers in that period? How close would a Japanese "tanegashima" arquebus be to those carried by the Portuguese in that period?
Thanks all! Looking forward to further discussions!

 

[Treestalker]

I understand the Portuguese who introduced the matchlock to the Japanese were using 'snapping' matchlocks, which the Japanese copied. I also understand the Japanese had difficulty making threaded screws, or perhaps understanding the concept. That's all I can tell you; surely more Forum members can enlighten us both. I hope you can do some serious reenacting in Thailand, please keep us informed!

 

[Lost in Sarnau]

Yes, at least Wikipedia says that the Istinggar's mechanism, which was adopted from the Portuguese after the conflict at Malacca, was a snap lock mechanism. The Japanese stocks seem to be very short at the butt, however.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Can you better define the time period. When in the 16th century?

dave

 

[rickystl]

Something with a Malaysian flavor might look like this:

 

[rickystl]

Or, did you mean the Portuguese/European side ?

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Some interesting reading in the direction I think you are going (?).......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istinggar

 

[dave_person]

Hi Folks,
I think he is interested in what a gun carried by a Portuguese soldier would look like not something made in SE Asia. It is important to know what time period during the 16th century because technology changed a lot during the century. The individual he mentioned was an Admiral who was in India and SE Asia during the first decade of the 1500s. That establishes a lot of potential details. This is not the era of large, long muskets, it is almost assuredly matchlocks only (even if Da Vinci drew a wheellock in 1507), and both snapping and manual match lock mechanisms would be appropriate. The snapping lock would be button operated and the manual lock would be a sear lock rather than a "tricker" lock. Very long and large "hagbuses" exited but they were very heavy and mostly rampart guns. The hand held weapon would look like those carried by the Landsknecht. Below are two photos of portions of a great tapestry showing the Battle of Pavia in 1525. These may be some of the most reliable images of the weapons and kit.

There are more modern paintings of Pavia that are very wrong with respect to armaments. They show 17th century soldiers. At the time Pavia, the role of hand gun armed soldiers was still evolving. They were typically arrayed at the corners of square blocks of pikemen and their role was to weaken or disrupt the order and discipline of opposing squares so the pikemen could rush in and crush them. It is not clear to me if preloaded cartridge flasks, "apostles" were in use that early. The firearms were fairly short and most were likely held against the cheek or held at the waist. They were not meant to be held against the shoulder at that early date. They did not look like Japanese Tanegashimas. They were much heavier and bulkier. Look at images of firearms in the arsenal of Maximillian I of Austria to get an idea. I've shot modern made sear operated and snapping matchlocks from that era with cheek stocks and they worked very well.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Well This ' What was the Portugese musket traded of to the Japonese like ? ' This came up pertainently to MLAIC, Viz' International ' Competitions. Who plumped for the short cheek stock interpretation to suit the Japonese more a decision based on polotics than historical accuracy . If you look at Japonese renditions and compare the Venetion snap match lock, You can see the clear similaritys of forward striking match holder or more a lightly falling' Serpentine ' Note the pan design and the curious rod grouve compare them to the Venetian guns that being so widely produced like some latter day AK and while they all vary gun to gun the numbers recovered from the wreck of the 'Mary Rose' Henry the 8 th sinking in 1545 ( He having sought thousands of these Venician guns,) as likely enough the Portugees had numbers at the time . They all had Shoulder stocks . My surmise is that the crafty Portugees mariners off loaded a broken shortened off musket to flick off to the Natives at Tanagashima and likely laughed all the way back home ! . The Japonees native artizans didn't want for skill but screw threading & bizzarley enough spring making seemed beyond them . I have made many Venition snap matchlocks mostly for target shooters since they give a familiar' shoulder' stock ,a pistol grip and sights of a peep site sort the light trigger let of far better to have a light reliable let of .eminently suitable for such shooting competitions . Though I've hunted deer with them . The bore & whether rifled or smaller smooth bores you make to suit your needs or fancies . While this is just a snippet It is supported by a noted student of arms Guy Wilson Then engaged by the Royal armouries who made a study of the recovered guns from 'Mary Rose' and complete originals held in the Tower at that time who drew the same conclusion .
Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rudyard,
Time period the OP is talking about is about 1505. A lot happened with firearms development between then and 1545. Even the images of the Battle of Pavia I show above are still 20 years after the Admiral, which is why I am not so sure they used the "12 apostles" when the Admiral was in SE Asia despite the gunners in the tapestries using them. To be honest, Rudyard, I have never seen, or remember seeing, a firearm with a shoulder stock that dated before the 1530s. Hayward shows a German gun dated 1533 he labeled the earliest German firearm with a shoulder stock. All of the early Italian snapping matchlocks I've seen were cheek stocks and the most ornate had stocks covered with velvet. The photos shows an arquebusier dated 1502.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here is another link that may help.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18532
dave

 

[Lost in Sarnau]

Hi,
Can you better define the time period. When in the 16th century?

dave

I'm thinking of - as an early date - the diplomatic mission of Duarte Fernandes in 1511, and as a later date the Burmese-Siam war in the 1540's in which Portuguese troops participated.

 

[Lost in Sarnau]

Hi,
Here is another link that may help.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18532
dave

Very interesting! As are all your responses btw. I see a wide variation in the design of the stocks in these weapons.

 

[Lost in Sarnau]

I am sure that the development of these arms advanced quite a bit through the 16th century, but a crew of adventurers leaving Europe in say 1500 would have the technology of that time. Perhaps when they returned many years later they might find that their guns were already obsolete.
Anyway, the Osprey book covering this period and culture is on its way to me, I'm sure it will also supply things to think about.

A note: I will probably not be able to shoot live arms here in Thailand, although I'm researching the exceptions. So probably a non shooting replica will have to do. Certainly we can do exhibitions of "side-sword" combat as well as whatever polearms were in use among these troops.

Thanks again!

 

[rickystl]

I received an interesting reply from a fellow collector who's special interest is in early Spanish/Portuguese/Italian firearms. Here is his reply ref Portuguese firearms during this period:

Hi, Rick

Oddly enough, finding a complete one is very difficult, the country was disarmed twice (by the Spanish, 1580, and the French under Napoleon) so very little of that early stuff survives. The Military Museum in Lisbon has bits and pieces but no complete specimen. Building one today requires some extrapolation. During the 1990s a replica was made in Portugal for presentation to a museum in Japan but from the looks of it, I have doubts as to the accuracy of the design. The pics I have are of two likely candidates, one a magnificent sporting gun built under Portuguese supervision at Goa, India, probably first half of the 16th cent. I don't have the barrel length but assume it to be around 40-48 in. Not sure as to caliber. The trigger is missing. The other is the butt end of the Bohemian / German forebear, of a type sold to the Portuguese in large numbers at the end of the 15th cent. As you can see it is an extremely crude and primitive thing. Bronze sculptures cast in Africa show Portuguese soldiers aiming these guns, they appear to have fairly short barrels, around 40 in. but of fairly large bore in keeping with German fashion at that time. It uses a button trigger. Like the Goa sporting gun, the barrels on these were pin-fastened, no barrel bands.

Photos to follow in next post....

Rick

 

[rickystl]

 

[Lost in Sarnau]

Magnificent! The Goanese gun is very ornate, but as this is the port from which the Portuguese would have embarked, it's as close as anyone can get. As for the Bohemian one, of course it's likely that the Portuguese were not allergic to letting other people make things for them; It's likely this was built to spec for the Portuguese market.
I'm hoping I can get to a museum in Bangkok that might have a surviving example. Perhaps there is some Thai art that shows these troops in reasonable detail.
It looks like the stocks for the Tanegashima guns from Japan were indeed quite different.
Thank you!

 

[hrt4me]

very interesting, thank you all as to the depth and breadth of knowledge on this board

 

[Rudyard]

Not withstanding Dave's observations .' What cant speak cant lie ' The recovered remnants from 'Mary Rose' and the good condition examples in the Tower / RA are too similar to the Japonees copies as to allay any confusion or chance . Even given that each gun tends to vary the guns are structurally related . All that differs is the length of the butt stock Venitian guns ( and by Venician I mean the region controlled by Venice not the City its self ) are more than likely What the Portugees obtained & had full butted stocks . But the cut down cheek stock examples are what the Tanagashima gunmakers copied .It is a presumption that they where fettled up from damaged guns .& the Japonees no wiser copied them or if they knew the difference may have preferred the altered style .I wasn't there .But the structural evidence shouldn't be in question . I have studied and made new guns on a wide variety of styles such a the Behaim gun held in the Hermitage Museum dated 1510 . And colourful paintings are just' artists impressions ' .Not photo's or accurate line drawings . Pretty no doubt but hardy practical . Serpentines coming straight out of a barrel . ?" You cant do these things Nemo !." If you did make guns such as the artists depict Ile warrant they just wouldn't function. . The Behaim gun I made in 40 cal it was not a very handy gun but it was documentary and it worked , however awkward to use . Ile will send you a photo I havnt figured out how the post pics I have trouble with E gajets . I am about to make another Petronel I made one years ago for the gunner of the' Golden Hinde ' replica , They are not a very one size suits all affair but useless as they might be they had them and in one case at least urged more be available .You might call it experimental Arciologagy . But all such ancient stuff appeals to me . Anyway More anon.
Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

ROPE LOCKS, you just gotta luv EM!! what is not to luv?? if you have never shot one, give it a try.