post hawkin here

It was mentioned earlier (much earlier) in this post that some original Hawkens or clones (still in the 1830-1850's) had brass furniture. How common was brass? I'm "Hawkenizing" a gun and was going to go with iron but leaving the brass would save a bunch of $$$. I'm still leaning towrds iron unless it was more common to see a brass mounted Hawken type rifles than I'm thinking.

PS. This thread has been great, it's been more informative and insightful than I could get out of a book.

Desert Rat, there is only one brass mounted Hawken rifle in the heavy plains category that I know of and it is a short hefty rifle to say the least. The barrel is a full 1 1/4 at the breech and is only 30" long. It is a .50 cal. rifle with the usual buckhorn rear sight and silver blade in a copper base front sight. It is a halfstock with underrib and two forward rampipes.It has only one barrel wedge and the escutheons are of brass as is the rest of the furniture. Marked S. Hawken St. Louis on top barrel flat. The rest of the Hawken rifles I have seen that are brass were intended for target or squirrel rifles for the local trade instead of the mountain or frontier trade. Then there are those Hawken rifles made before Sam went to St. Louis that were made in Hagerstown and later Xenia, Ohio that look like any other Maryland School longrifle of the early 19th c. Brass furniture on a "mountain" rifle of Hawken manufacture was not common but it was done. Iron furniture being the most common of course. I hope this answers your question.
Don

 

Fellas, if my response to Flyboy sounded harsh I didn't mean it to be but when I reread it I see how it may have come across harshly. I am not apologizing for the content but the way it was worded.
Sorry Guys,
Don :v

 

[faw3]

Cooner dont get me wrong its not I dont belive you as much as Ive only got to read one small thing 4 or 5 pages long in MB. And the things he pointed out sounded right to me . I havent got to even hear your points, if youd direct me to your postings I'd like very much to read them. I E d Don today I'll see if he has the time to get back to me along with a question about useing his fullstock for something Im turnning over in my head. As I was trying to get across I was going to be a U.S. history teacher at one time till I saw my dad after 30 yrs in the Air Force get out and teach a math I cant even say or spell at Duke in the 60s then here in Texas, and it was more work, longer hours than throwing a chain on a oil rig(and paid a lot better,I didnt care for the 60 days on 7 off to much but you cant spend much that way at least) Anyway back on track I read a lot, and my mind can pic apart and remember things I've read 25 yrs ago like the Val hunt in Africa story people here wanted a copy of and didnt take me a hour to find the 15 pages from that 25 to 30 yr old mag. I saw 2 Hawken rifles today and I'll be go to he.. if one wasnt brass! Right after i said "I dont think so" this one has a plate of copper or thin brass in front of the trigger guard (is this the wear from holding it across a horse Ive read about?) It is to bad no one has the time to write another book or two, as you said lots has come out or changed since "B" wrote his. The "Its place in History should get two me in a few days, and I read like other people breath. Anyway please share your other spots if we can still pullthem up I like to read them (and is why we need a Hawken spot of our own, anyone else see how many people have goy into this and I bet it will get better soon or die. Once again thanks all, have a good weekend. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Desert Rat]

Thanks for the detailed concise answer, Thanks for everyone elses input as well. I'm going stick to my original plan and go with iron. If I can get her done this year :hmm: I'll post the pics.

 

[reddogge]

I think original Hawken rifles tend to be like antique decoys carved by one carver or another. You can look at dozens of them carved and painted by the same man but find no two exactly alike because they were all hand carved but the style of carving and painting is always unmistakably the work of that man. That and a person's style evolves a little over time.

Same as a rifle. Since they were basically a handmade item they will vary slightly and exhibit differences in dimensions and finish but will always carry the unmistakable style of the maker.

 

[rabbit03]

Hello FW. Might as well post my Hawken (TYPE) rifle too. Long history behind this particular rifle and it has won me lots of trophies over the years. I actually traded for it years ago (got skinned too) but the good thing was that I used the rifle in many a match and won lots of times with it so not an entire loss.

It started out as a .50 then I put a .45 on it in most of the shooting I have done with it. It let me down on a couple of occasions in the last couple of years and figured I would retire it and hang it over the mantle. But it was not befitting for a rifle that had done so much for me so I decided to rework it and give it a new life.

The photos are of what it looked like before and after I finished it. One can not really notice how much crud and junk there was in the trigger assembly by the photos but it was enough trust me. I had thought about filing and sanding all the steel parts and then giving them the antique patina I like so well then thought well why not just leave them as is since it already had the color I wanted and the small scratches and dings were war wounds from years of shooting which I thought gave it a bit of character. So the decision was made to leave the steel as is and go forward with the project. I had an H&H barrel marked .450/614/1:20 lying around the house. I am ashamed to admit this but the barrel was filled with rust/ mud dobber nest and dirt. I finally got a ramrod through it and cleaned it as best I could and will lap it after making a slug for it tomorrow. "Also as noted by the three pencils you may be able to tell that there are six holes on the top flat that I had to fill in . I think the barrel will come out in good order but only shooting will tell. If not I will order another 1" in .450 and do it that way. My intent is to make a long range shooter as evidenced by the photo with the slug next to it. I am gonig to order the vernier tang sight for the rear and a globe front sight with inserts and hopefully get to have a little fun at some distances. I have always wanted to outshoot the guy with the .338 Win Mag or one of the other big rifles of today. And outshot them at about 6 or 7 hundred yards or something, now maybe I will get a chance.

I took the wood down past the old finish but not enough to take away all the color and restained it with the ol Aqua Fortis recipe and although I like the color I prefer a little darker finish on my guns. I also had another plug that fit the barrel on hand and really had to buy nothing at all in order to accomplish the project. So I am going to have a long range shooter (front loader) that I have always wanted and I have also done it at litterly no cost and I have given an old faithfull friend a new lease on life.

Just thought some of yall would enjoy the pics and the post. I know it aint a real Hawken but it aint too shaby either.

For the record I will recieve my new kit from TOTW on Monday. It is a Jim Bridger Hawken in 1 1/8 and .58 caliber. I will be forwarding some pics of the progress (hopefully) in the near future since I am certain to start on it right away.

rabbit03
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Fred, I am not asking anyone to believe me, only to consider what I have passed on to you. Keep reading and studying these fine rifles made by fine craftsmen and I'll do the same. :winking: Hopefully we'll keep sharing our own insights as well as insights passed on to us from our Hawken enthusiast friends outside of this forum.
Don

 

[rebel727]

This is my globe/vernier sighted Hawken. Sorry about the quality of the pic but my camera's broke and it's the only pic I have.

 

I think original Hawken rifles tend to be like antique decoys carved by one carver or another. You can look at dozens of them carved and painted by the same man but find no two exactly alike because they were all hand carved but the style of carving and painting is always unmistakably the work of that man. That and a person's style evolves a little over time.

Same as a rifle. Since they were basically a handmade item they will vary slightly and exhibit differences in dimensions and finish but will always carry the unmistakable style of the maker.

Well said Reddogge, how the Hawken rifle changed over the decades of its manufacture is quite a study. The fact that so many makers during that same time frame were making Hawken rifles either in the Hawken Shop or for the Hawken Shop, i.e. Hoffman & Campbell, makes researching these rifles quite an adventure. Plus the skill level of these makers and the differnt hardware being offered from various makers all adds up to a very big puzzle that I don't think anyone will ever figure it all out. It is fun trying though.
I have finished the J&S Hawken rifle about three weeks ago but have not had the time to shoot pictures of it yet for showing on this thread. I hope to do so within a few days if the weather permits. I like shooting outside best.
Don

 

[rabbit03]

Hi Reb thanks for posting the pic of the rifle. I was wondering what brand of sights you had on there and where you got them. I was going to order sights from TOTW tomorrow like yours. Is your globe front sight the tallest one? It looks like the tallest one that Track has. I was unsure which one to use for the front with the Medium range vrnier rear sight. Any suggestions?

rabbit03

 

[rebel727]

I got the sights from Numrich around ten years ago. The globe is the tallest one they had and came with several different inserts. I did have to drill the eyepiece out just a tad on the vernier and do some filing on the dovetail to get the globe to fit. My only complaint with this setup is it shoots a couple of inches high at 50 yds. I can't remember what brand either of them are.

 

[rabbit03]

HI again Reb I guess if yours shoots high at 50yds then could it be that you are not able to get the rear sight donwn low enough. Or guess it could be that the front sight could be a bit higher which would then make it kind of impractical though.

How do you like the set up? I was curious to find out if it works well and if you have used it for long shots. You seen what I am trying to do with mine, to shoot the slugs in the 1:20 barrel so I am anxious to get it to the range and see how it does. I appreciate the note back and thanks again,

rabbit03

 

[wtilenw]

Here's a picture of my newest. Traded a Pedersoli 12 ga. SXS straight across for it last Saturday. :grin: It was made here in Idaho by Calvin Paine. .54 caliber.
Idaho PRB

 

[rebel727]

HI again Reb I guess if yours shoots high at 50yds then could it be that you are not able to get the rear sight donwn low enough. Or guess it could be that the front sight could be a bit higher which would then make it kind of impractical though.

How do you like the set up? I was curious to find out if it works well and if you have used it for long shots. You seen what I am trying to do with mine, to shoot the slugs in the 1:20 barrel so I am anxious to get it to the range and see how it does. I appreciate the note back and thanks again,

rabbit03

The rear sight won't adjust low enough. I like the setup pretty well but sight adjustments aren't fast. It has two small locknuts to keep it from moving. Leave them loose and it will move. The vernier is also adjustable for windage. I took a deer with it at 200 yds. several years ago using 100 grs. of FF behind a R E A L bullet. It's better suited for target shooting tho.

 

[rabbit03]

Nice, very nice! Thanks for the post. I wish the color on my ol' rifle would have been a little darker like yours but I can live with it. I am just glad to get it going again and anxious to see how the barrel comes through with having been in such bad shape. Wish me luck

rabbit03

 

[rabbit03]

Hi again Reb thanks again for the info. I will keep that in mind when ordering mine. I think I have seen some that may be a little cheaper (quality wise) but they loosen and tighten by turning the apeture clockwise and counter-clockwise. Not certain but that may speed up the time to adjust one to the different distances needed in hunting situations. Thanks

rabbit03

 

[faw3]

Hello to everyone , I watch this all day Saturday and nothing , turn my back and BANG filled again. How to start? COONER 54 yyou got a lot of time in these that I dont ,what i was trying to say above is if you can send me off to other stuff ,things youv put here someplace , sometime ,Id like to read them , I doubt I'm going to disagree with anyone about the Hawken story ,no one it seems knows it all and never will (and it sure wouldn't be me-I'm a work in progress myself) I just soak up history facts,anything anyone can add please do!Desert Rat Sounds like a plan to me! After seeing this org brass I'm a real beliver in what I first said way back about I have yet to see 2 the same , I'd go iron,the parts are easy to find :rotf: (just kidding)Do keep us caught up please.Rabbit 03 I had to go thru yours a few times , I wouldnt make a LR shooter out of that one , but I got 2 for that I havent used in i dont know how long. Then on second thought I can remember when I was going to put my 20x Lyman on one just to see how far and how good "this thing is" I do love those 451s about 550grs. You can always put it back to how it started so why not! Recipe please? The wood looks just fine to me! Do show us pics of both as you go along, I'd like to see how your new one from TOTW is maybe diffrent from the oe in ads from 85 or so. About those sights I shot the Sharps + Remington R Block and had all the fun I ever want trying to hit a 3/4 size steel Bull Buff at 1000 yds it semed like I was always changeing something just to keep up with everyone Good Luck!(its also fun) Idaho PRB can you put a few more pics up (its a little dark on mine screen) I like that wood. Thanks again to everyone keeping this spot going, as you all showed it's getting better and better. FRED :hatsoff:

 

[faw3]

I got a E back from Don Stith this morrning and he sets the date of the Modena at 1842. I'm waiting on two Hanson to really make this fun or confuseing (dateing anything sometimes can be a manure shoot anyway) rabbit03 who made your first one? (I'm trying to keep up with what each type by maker looks like) you have some real nice wood,and keep us up with how its new life is turnnig out. and to add to the sight thing, the Lyman comes in differnt heights as well a dove size. Also I dont know what range your working for but the U.S.M.C. sniper instructor that helped me had mine set for "about" 3 1/2 FEET at 50 yds, the idea I think was if you had to shoot someone that close just aim at his feet to get a chest hit, he did set up part or most of the Marines program for VN and has a book out but I dont know that he'd like his name on here. Also the rear Ithink your going to order is real hard to move just a hair, you need a set up like the up and down to do fine adjustments. Has anyone ever seen Pecatonica full or half stocks used on the T/C? The pics on line sure look right at first glance. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[dmills]

Has anyone ever seen Pecatonica full or half stocks used on the T/C? The pics on line sure look right at first glance. Fred :hatsoff:

No, but I have been admiring the TOW replacement stocks for the T/C. From my inaccurate measurements, the drop on the replacement stocks comes in about halfway between the T/C drop and the Kit Carson drop. With that stock and a conversion to iron(steel) kit from the Hawken Shop and a barrel from Green Mountain, I would have.........spent as much or more than I would on a full Kit Carson kit from TOW. :youcrazy:

 

[reddogge]

wish the color on my ol' rifle would have been a little darker

rabbit03, you can darken yours up to your taste with alcohol based dyes like Behlens. Should go over your stain easily. Let dry and wet a spot to see final color. Lighten it up if it gets too dark with alcohol or the thinner they sell. Keep putting on coats to darken.

I've used Behlens, Chestnut Ridge, L&R Lock, Robert Ditchburn, Dixie colonial and leather dye. All were good and easy to use.