potassium nitrate paper

[dirtyhands]

Being kinda new to black powder I'm just experimenting and having fun. I made up some homemade cartridges from some tips on you tube. As an afterthought I was thinking of soaking the paper in potassium nitrate next time. Concerning the ones I made up now can I lightly brush some pot nitrate on them or just soak the tip near the cones? Will it ruin the powder in any way if it makes contact? Thanks.

 

[Billnpatti]

Do not try brushing potassium nitrate on the already rolled cartridges. It is likely that you may ruin the powder or change its burning rate by adding potassium nitrate to it. Just shoot the cartridges that you now have just as they are and then, if you want to, soak the paper in potassium nitrate and let it completely dry before making future cartridges with it. I have a bunch of paper cartridges that I made for my .44 Remington revolver. I used cigarette paper to make them. I am anxious to see how they work. I will first try simply putting them into the cylinder and pressing a ball on top. If I get any misfires, I will then try using a needle through the nipple to puncture the paper cartridge to better expose the powder and see how that goes. I am expecting good results one way or the other. Oh, BTW, I have a can of compressed air that is intended for blowing dust off camera lenses. I will use it to blow out my cylinder chambers to remove any lingering embers. I will also use two cylinders so that one will have time for the embers to go out while I am shooting the other. Just shoot 6 shots, remove the cylinder, blow out the chambers and sit it aside while I shoot the other cylinder.

 

[dirtyhands]

Billnpatti: I kinda thought so. Just figured I run it by. I have some of the same ideas as you. The cartridges people made on you tube seemed to work fine as is. I just figured a little xtra flash couldn't hurt. By the way,to save a buck, my wife tipped me off to try her tissure wrapping paper. Works fine. I just use a glue stick on one edge of the paper. Thanks again for the heads up.

 

[ccmountainman]

No, it will almost guaranteed contaminate the powder.
But first, what type of paper did you use?

If cigarette they are already nitrated ( of some sort).

 

[dirtyhands]

I used my wifes tissue wrapping paper. Maybe a little more delicate then rolling papers but it worked.

 

[crockett]

dirtyhands- since you are new I'll review just a few things. A lot of folks think the paper was treated so it would "burn through" and blow up the powder. If the back of the paper case is only one layer thick then the blast of the cap should normally rupture the paper and blow up the powder. The original cases were tin foil that was thin enough to rupture. The tin foil was used because it was inflammable and would not hold an ember. The problem with the foil was a lot of residue left in the chamber and after about 5-6 rounds there was so much residue you could not seat another cartridge deep enough into the chamber- the end of the bullet stuck out and jammed when you tried to cock the hammer.
So....the treatment is to burn up all the paper so no residue is left that could hold an ember and there shouldn't be much residue or ash. The original cases had strong acidic compounds that weren't good for the metal in the chambers but they did the job and the military didn't care on longevity. Today's cigarette paper is okay but it will leave residue and before reloading you should always check out the chambers for fouling. If a live ember remains and you load another round- it will blow up right in your face.

 

[rodwha]

The way I made mine with cigarette papers left a twisty tail at the end that was inserted and sat against the nipple. I cut the excess off but it still left a small nob. These all fired just fine without picking through the nipples. I fired about 150-200 shots like this.

I found small shards of burnt paper in 2-3 chambers each time and used a small pair of needle nose to pull them, but then tried several cylinders to see if it caused any issues. I only tried 3 cylinders but it never hinder me.

I bought stumper remover and tried making nitrated papers to see how it worked but I lost interest and never finished. It took some of the relaxing fun and ease out of it, and left flaky white nitrate that comes off easily. Maybe I'll try 'em out one of these days.

 

[dirtyhands]

I understand now. The nitrate is meant to burn up the paper. I knew about cking for embers so one did not blow themselves up. LOL. The tin foil use was interesting. The history,devices of what was used back then really makes these guns interesting. It gives them character. Thank you.

 

[AZbpBurner]

About 40 years ago I spent a lot of time nitrating various types of paper. I never did get it to work to my satisfaction, and although nitrated, there was always a lot of residual paper, often still burning.

It's good to see, even though nobody else has been able to make it work right, someone stepping up to try to re-invent the nitrated paper ctg. :rotf:

 

[dirtyhands]

Don't hurt yourself laughing so hard. LOL.

 

[Darto]

youtube shows some examples of folks making paper cartridges, pretty easy to find them...

 

[wicket]

The only completely combustible cartridges i know of are made from nitrocellulose paper, basically magician's flash paper. Unfortunately flash paper is expensive to buy, and dangerous to make at home. During the Civil War Johnston & Dow produced large numbers of cartridges formed with nitrocellulose paper, as did Colt when their metal foil cartridges proved unsatisfactory.
For the modern shooter, any of several types of tissue paper offer the best choice for cartridge making. Curling papers are quite good, they are inexpensive, relatively strong, and burn with very little ash. I haven't found that saturating the papers with potassium nitrate solution improves them enough to be worth the trouble.
One drawback to using tissue paper is that the cartridges are rather delicate, since the minimum amount of paper possible is used in order to limit the quantity of unburnt residue. I found through experiment that Duco cement thinned with acetone makes a good adhesive for combustible cartridges, it's made from nitrocellulose and burns quite cleanly.
The risk of a subsequent charge being ignited by the residue left behind by a carefully formed tissue paper cartridge is probably minimal, but since it would most likely take place as the cartridge was being rammed, it is not something to take lightly, and precautions ought to be taken to insure that no embers remain as the weapon is reloaded.

 

[ZUG]

Very well stated Wicket :bow: & good info - thanks.

 

[crockett]

For what it is worth you can use plain old newspaper- untreated- and get about 70% plus ignition without punching a hole in the back end. The only problem is the newsprint doesn't burn up well and has a lot of residue.
On the original, there were various manufacturer's, each with their own formula. On the Colt paper, I think both nitrates and sulfuric acid were used. D.C. Sage used fish gut that he said would crisp when shot, Johnson & Dow (I might be confusing manufacturers) had a case-less deal, sort of a Pyrodex pellet glued to a conical and then shellacked. I think they worked okay except the Army wanted cartridges that could be submerged in water 4 hours and then still fire and the shellacked rounds failed half the time.
In Any Event...the sad reality is we probably can't exactly reproduce the original stuff.
These combustible rounds came in a little wood box that had a wrapping and pull string/wire. You yanked on the pull string to rip apart the wrapping and Voila! out fell 6 rounds all ready to load. D.C. Sage sometimes had caps included but on the Colt you needed a capper. There were 5 round boxes for 5 shot 31 caliber revolvers, etc.
To me at least- it is a bonding experience. I start with a clean revolver but imagine I've just shot 6 rounds. I rip open the box (I made boxes and labels) and load up. You have to compare it to a 45Colt where you had to individually take out each case and then reload. The percussion revolvers with the boxes were very fast.

 

[wicket]

Zug, glad you found my posting interesting. Unless my memory fails me, there was a pretty good exchange about paper cartridges on this site several months ago, worth checking the archives for.
Interesting to think about the casualty figures in the ACW if combustible cartridges for rifled muskets had been in general use in conjunction with the Napoleonic massed infantry tactics.

 

[wicket]

Hi Crockett. I use a small block of wood bored for six individual .36 cartridges with simple muslin-hinged wooden lid, works fine and protects the cartridges well. I notice the guy at Capandball is making and selling something about the same, available in a couple of calibers with a printed label.
I still have a lot of nitro paper on hand, but may try curling papers when i run out. I bought a couple of brands online, and was surprised at how cleanly they burned outside the revolver. My only major concern is how well they will stand up to filling with powder and having a wad and bullet pressed on top.

 

[dirtyhands]

Yeah,that's where I picked up most of the tips.

 

[dirtyhands]

The tissue is a little more delicate but for my needs it holds up fine. I just shoot at a public range. I have them in a little tin. They really don't get banged around much. From house to range to chamber. I use 27gr in my 44. They slip right into the chamber without having to cram them in. I'm sure if I was in reinactments running,jumping around they might bust open.

 

[wicket]

For an experiment i just made up six rounds from un-treated hair curling papers, 15 grains of blackpowder, a Gatofeo type wad resized slightly in a die, and a conical, fired in my '61 Navy. There was a piece of unburned paper about the size of three rice grains left in one chamber, the other chambers just had a tiny amount of powdery black ash. The curling papers are tough, but flimsy, maybe soaking them in potassium nitrate solution would stiffen them a bit and make them easier to work with.

 

[crockett]

Wicket- I made both a Colt box (two halves) and a D.C. Sage block- one block with 6 holes. The Colt was very difficult to reproduce because the thickness of the wood between the holes is paper thin and tends to break. I therefore use the D.C. Sage types. What I did was down load an internet photo of D.C. Sage packets of 36 Navy cartridges. I then photocopied onto yellow/tan paper to create a period correct wrapping. I use a glue stick and a wire pull and wrap it up. Every time you rip it open you need to glue stick another wrapper in place. I have 3 blocks I made and only use them on rare occasion. I printed up a bunch of wrappers at one time.
For those unfamiliar with all of this, the combustible cartridges are great but they were part of a system that included the box. To get a real feel for how all this worked historically you need to make a little box (about the size of a deck of cards) and do the whole thing, grab the box, rip it open, load the rounds. This is something best done at a range under safe conditions. And...since the modern nitrated paper sometimes leaves residue, check the chambers before reloading.