Potts and Hunt Enfield Type identification

[trlrider]

Hello, and thank you for the approval to the group.
We have a percussion rifle with a Potts and Hunt Lock that does not fit any available known models.
Having research several groups, I have yet to find one that looks like this one.
What I know:
- Potts and Hunt - London
- 58 Caliber (? Barrel measurement is .586_
- it is grooved bore
- 2 band

What I do not know is:
- What year(s) they were manufactured
- for whom
- if it is all original
- does the bayonet match the rifle (it does fit properly)

Thanks for any assistance.
Sorry about the dirty looking towel in a couple of the images. Did not want to lay it on the floor.
10 images included.

Thank You

 

[hawkeye2]

There is a little information here concerning one they sold:
http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/firearms/longarms/10916

 

[pargent]

Yes a legit sergeant's carbine sold out of service, as for the bayonet they were at times fitted with both types .

 

[trlrider]

Thank you for the responses so far.
The puzzling thing is this rifle does not have a rear sight and shows no indication of having one.

Will need to look closer under a magnifier, but I do not see where there could have been a screw hole to attached on.

Where these used in both sides of the Civil War, or in the Civil war at all?

Thank you, we are that much further in the process than I was last night.

Thank You,

Louis

 

[pargent]

I don't see it as ACW , but if it saw service it would most likely have been in the Crimea and then India .

 

[FredBoulton]

Rear sights were soldered on----no screw.
Fred

 

[arquebus]

Those proof marks show that it this is a commercial rifle-musket, not WD (War Department) owned, so would not have been 'Sold Out of Service'.....do you see any marks on the gun that would suggest otherwise that I may have missed?
Also, the transition from forend to barrel looks wrong, the band looks too wide for a typical British military-style R-M of this era, plus they would have had a forend cap, either brass or iron to match the trigger guard, so I suspect it has been shortened at some time.
Commercial, or 'Volunteer', military style arms did not have to comply with any particular WD Pattern, so many variations will be found.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Yes a legit sergeant's carbine sold out of service, as for the bayonet they were at times fitted with both types .

No, I'm sorry it is not. It is not in it's original configuration - the stock has been shortened and a French or American middle band from a smoothbore musket has been fitted, nothing at all like the original condition.

The bayonet fits but it appears to be an American M1855 bayonet made for the US M1855 through M1864 Rifle Muskets.

The stock likely came from a P53 long rifle musket, certainly not a "sergeant's carbine", though maybe the barrel did, what is the length of the barrel?

I do like the Potts & Hunt lock....

 

[trlrider]

Rear sights were soldered on----no screw.
Fred

Thanks Fred,
Will look at that part of the barrel closer for signs of solder or removal of the sight.
There is a rough spot in the area where the sight should have been. Maybe it was polished after the sight was removed or lost.

Louis

 

[trlrider]

I don't see it as ACW , but if it saw service it would most likely have been in the Crimea and then India .

Interesting! Will check with my wife and see if her ex-father in law who the rifle belonged to spent any time over in those areas.
I know he was a WWII bomber pilot, but not sure where he served.

Louis

 

[trlrider]

... though maybe the barrel did, what is the length of the barrel?

I do like the Potts & Hunt lock....

Will measure the barrel next chance I get.

Note: I have not separated the stock from the barrel yet to see if there are any other marks on the barrel or stock.

This barrel is rifled, the only two examples I have seen of the Sargeant's Carbine are documented as being smooth bore.

It is a interesting piece, and the more I learn about it and others from the era, the more intrigued I get.

Thanks,

Louis

 

[pargent]

:hmm: :hmm: :bow: I believe you are correct , and an Indian period restock is very likely :hmm: then modified later with the US parts you mentioned .

 

[bangfxr]

Have to remember when the CW started both the union and confederate gov'ts didn't have the industry set up for mass war production so there were a lot of arms procured from all over Europe. A lot of that stuff was deemed unsafe after blowing up in recruits faces during camp of instruction. Some of the stuff was junked at first sight or stripped of useable parts.

 

[Grumpa]

Colt sold 2680 long Enfields and 1940 short Enfields (with sword bayonets) made by Potts & Hunt to the US Government.

Potts a & Hunt were Colt's prime suppliers in the London trade during 1861-1862.

(Civil War Guns by William B. Edwards)

 

[Grumpa]

As above, following is a partial description of a Potts & Hunt short rifle.

33" bbl w/o bayonet stud; instead, the stock is approximately four inches longer, the nose cap fitted 1 3/8 inches from the muzzle. The front band is fixed with both screw tightener and a cross pin, and the bayonet lug is forged integral and machined out of the band metal. Located 7 5/8 inches from the breech is the rear sight fixed base. ( a description of the sight follows, I will give it if you want.)

The P&H bbl is a Birmingham tube, stamped underneath 6 inches from the breech MILLWARD (Charles and Ezra Millward supplied a great many military barrels to the Colt enterprise (in England) during the Civil War.)

The gun number (in this case, "8") "probably a lot of 12 or 20 guns fitted up by the same set of workmen", appears on the barrel, and close by on the bottom edge of the barrel plug wedge. The Roman numeral VIII is scribed on the barrel bottom, and again in the ramrod channel, to match the tube with the stock for which it was inletted.

The initial P&H are on the bottom of the barrel. On the top left edge of the barrel breech are the London Provisional definitive proof marks and view marks, all of the Gunmakers Company. The Govt crown over an inspector numeral appears on the back face of the barrel, and again on the plug below the tang.

The stock make stamped his name (P. WEDGE) in the ramrod groove closest to the rear band.

Initial on the inside of the lock, bottom of the barrel and rear edge of the stock face opposite the lock, are evidently the mark of the final inspector at Potts & Hunt.

Again, all of the above is from Civil War Guns, William B. Edwards

I hope this information is useful to you. As per post above, your rifle may have been to the Crimea, or India, or it may never have been "fired in anger". That's for you to try to discover.

At any rate, it's a nice old rifle. Good luck.

 

[BillinOregon]

Is the barrel a five-groove with 1:48 twist or a three-groove 1:78?