Pouch knife: strap or bag mounted?

I've never seen an origional bag with a short starter hanging on it, but we consider them a necessity. They didn't shoot the origional guns the way we do apparently. Ease of loading seemed to be their primary concern, with ball size much smaller than what we demand today. They had to use whatever they could find for patching and couldn't take chances.
Almost every origional bag I've seen did have a good sized loading block with it. That may be why we don't see too many patch knives hanging on bag straps. They didn't use short starters or patch knives DURING LOADING. The patch knife was used to trim the patch when the loading block was prepared and then droped into the shooting bag.
EVER TRIED RELOADING ON THE RUN WITH A SHORT STARTER AND CUTTING THE PATCH AS YOU GO? It don't work too well! Only works right with prepatched balls in a loading block. No .005 underbore sized balls, no tight patches.
You want to get PC? Leave the modern mind set behind and think as close to the way the woodsmen did as we possibly can. Every shot required an immidiate speed load! No telling who heard that gun go off! The heck with finishing shots, there might be Indians around.
They were independant folks, didn't like rules and would have immidiately hung their patch knives on their bag straps if you told them they wern't allowed to do it that way! I grew up with their great-grandchildren, and I'm one of them. Give us a chace and we'll take it, give us a rule and we'll break it. That's why we arn't part of the British empire.
Remember, lack of documentation is not proof, only documentation is proof.

 

[Deadeye]

First bag I made(about 40 yrs. ago and still in use) I put the knife on the bag strap because I did some research and found many pictures of old bags with knifes on the strap.
It's worked out allright there but my favorite place is the front of the bag on about a 45 degree angle under the flap.
The butt of the knife is at the edge of the flap, I don't have to look to pull it out or replace it. All my other bags have it that way.
Deadeye

 

[Claude Mathis]

Remember, lack of documentation is not proof, only documentation is proof.

I agree. You can not prove a negative. That is, you can not prove that something did not take place.

Unfortunately, this is the "out" that some employ to use equipment that most would recognize as not being period correct. They can always say, "Prove they didn't use this in this manner".

I guess if someone wants to carry their knife tied to their hat or rifle, we can't "prove" it wasn't done that way.

 

[Ashelocoa]

Easy, guy! I too have done extenisive research into my era of choice-late18th century frontier- as have most here for one era or another. I said no absolutes, only what was common, not absolute. Documentaion bears out what I wrote, and I have seen a sketch of at least one bag from the era that had a sheath on the strap. I didn't say it shouldn't be!

I do think that this tends to fall more with my final statement, many things from the period that are everyday tend to go unmentioned. Example: I read numerous references to parched corn from late 17th to early 20th century with no idea what it was, finally had to consult modern sources to get an explaination. Apparaently no one in bygone days saw any reason to explain something so common as parched corn. It would be akin to someone today explaining a microwave everytime it was mentioned!
:winking:

My post wasn't meant as a personal attack, but somehow seems to have been taken that way... :redface:
I do my best to blend PC with my own research, not being in a formal regiment allows me this. The backwoods dominates my research, and I cover alot of ground otherwise too.

BTW--anyone have any ideas on how to load modern snug loads without a bore starter?

 

Ghost,.... I'd be innerested in know'n the proceedure for load'n from a load'n block, while "run'n".

 

[Claude Mathis]

Easy, guy! ... My post wasn't meant as a personal attack, but somehow seems to have been taken that way... :redface:

My comment wasn't really aimed at you. Sorry if I came off that way.I was actually agreeing with Ghost on a particular point.

I just couldn't help blurting out something that I think about from time to time regarding documentation.

 

[roundball]

I am too concerned about the style of knife I carry being period correct for my persona to really care what other people carry or where they carry it. ::

:: right now, my persona is "last century"...1970's TC Hawkens, thinsulate, fleece, goretex, and Lacrosse !!
::

 

[Stumpkiller]

I just couldn't help blurting out something that I think about from time to time regarding documentation.

That's a real quandry. I suppose it would be easier if we were trying to emulate courtiers, playwrights and authors of the 1700's. It's tough finding documentation written by a mostly illiterate population of common townsfolk and woodsmen. Paper was too valuable to waste it on describing the intricacies of buttoning up your pants and girding on your knife and hunting pouch. And if you're relying on a paintng or drawing, well then you've got the artists interpretation of something he might have conjured up to fill in the 'details' weeks after he began the sketch.

How's this: A longhunter wouldn't have tried to find a proper research source before he chose a way to carry his knife or load his rifle. So, wouldn't I be out of keeping with emulating him if I had to have a piece of paper decide for me how I was going to dress or behave?

We have the great advantage of sharing a common anatomy with the people we are mimicking. If we find it convenient to carry a knife on a pouch strap it is very likely someone in the past would also have stumbled across this and done it. But, when you're fighting hand-to-hand and have a knife offered up all nice like for an enemy at arm's length right where he can grab it from your strap and plunge it into your throat, it becomes less of a good idea.

Are we even sure that our ancestors chewed and swallowed their food? It seems pretty obvious to us, but do we have any documentation to support it? We may find a passage that says a certain food tasted good, but no mention of how many times a morsel was chewed or if it was, in fact, swallowed. Until we get access to a time machine there are a lot of things we'll have to guess at. Luckily, there are a lot of helpful folk who'll willingly share their opinions of what all's wrong with your kit when you show up at an 'event.'

 

I'd like to think if we use the "documented" weapons, cloths, and other "period equipment" long enough,... the "proper useage and handle'n" of many things will become obvious to us as "users"!

In order for this to work tho, a fella cain't have ANYTHIN thet cain't be documented first.

 

[musketman]

And who's to say that the documentation is true to begin with, we have no way of finding out, outside of surviving equiptment and paintings?

A good example is the Indian Wars of the late 1800's, people were there, people were reporting the events, and some people lied to sell their stories...

Almost like the supermarket's tabloids of the era... :haha:

So if a document from the late 1700's claims that the longhunter used a knife that hung from the strap of his possible's bag, it could have been creative writing and not really the truth...

 

[Claude Mathis]

How's this: A longhunter wouldn't have tried to find a proper research source before he chose a way to carry his knife or load his rifle. So, wouldn't I be out of keeping with emulating him if I had to have a piece of paper decide for me how I was going to dress or behave?

If we were talking about how to act in today's world, your analogy would be right on, but that isn't the issue. A better analogy might be, if the Longhunter were interested in how the Roman soldier carried his weapons, he might very well refer to documents and study the available evidence, as we do today when reenacting.

I agree with you - Until we have that time machine - reading documents, examining artifacts and using a little common sense will have to suffice.

Are we even sure that our ancestors chewed and swallowed their food? It seems pretty obvious to us, but do we have any documentation to support it?

Ah, you are a student of history. Let me check my library and I'll get back to you. I do seem to remember a reference to someone "swallowing" in the 17th Century. :winking:

Before this thread gets out of hand, I don't think anyone here is trying to convince anyone else how to act or how to go about their portrayal. I know I'm not.

I've seen this very subject get out of hand on other boards where people are flipping out over other people's equipment and portrayals. I tend to think that we are all in this (reenacting) for our own needs and that no one can really be doing it wrong if they're having fun.

We're here to share ideas, not beat each other over the head with them. This Forum is not a juried event. ::

 

Musketman,.... Tho we cain't document "how" sumpthin was carryed,... we can document "what" was carryed.

Practical "useage" of the historicaly documented equipment should render up some "answers" to things thet warn't written down, because the fellas "back then" considered them "un-note worthy or mundane" ,.... is what I was say'n in my other post!

 

[Stumpkiller]

If we were talking about how to act in today's world, your analogy would be right on, but that isn't the issue. A better analogy might be, if the Longhunter were interested in how the Roman soldier carried his weapons, he might very well refer to documents and study the available evidence, as we do today when reenacting.

:: But, the concept of hobbies and activities to fill our 'free time' is a very recent problem. Anyone in the eighteenth century had pretty full daylight hours six days a week - the exception being seamen on a multi-year voyage who had lots of time to kill. You might get to scratch out a bit of fancy on your campaign horn while serving a militia stint. The time spent hunting didn't NEED to be any more challenging. The traps and snares would have provided food without regard to sport. My Grandmother told my Mother that even sewing wasn't allowed on the Sabbath, and you'd have to pull all the stitches out with your nose before you could get into heaven. I guess Sunday afternoons were spent in contemplative boredom.

I do think it's important for those passing themselves off as authentic to be as accurate as possible. Living history stuff. For the rest of us - it's only to ourselves that we must be true. Ultimately, I might achieve completeness to the level of venturing out without my Fruit-of-the-Looms and Sorel boots, but probably not.

Pity the fellows who tried to get it right without the help of a site like this. I guess I'm fashioning a sheath to stick under my belt until I get a better solution of how to carry a 'pouch' knife.

 

[Claude Mathis]

:: But, the concept of hobbies and activities to fill our 'free time' is a very recent problem. Anyone in the eighteenth century had pretty full daylight hours six days a week - the exception being seamen on a multi-year voyage who had lots of time to kill.

Ain't it the truth. I'm sure they didn't have the free time we have to play at being somebody from history, even if the thought occurred to them.

For the rest of us - it's only to ourselves that we must be true.

Right again.

I was at an event one time with my son. He mentioned something about a gentleman that passed us and I remember telling him that the guys outfit wasn't proper, for a number of reasons. Then, I had the odd feeling that someone might be looking at me, saying the same thing!

It was a little humbling and I remember thinking that I had better view others with a lot more tolerance. :redface:

 

I haven't had this much fun since I was in Grad school! This sounds like some of the semanar classes I used to attend with all us history geeks slugging it out over PC and the poor Profeser hanging on for dear life trying to steer the discussion and keep us from throwing books at each other.
The only thing we could agree on then, and the same is true now, is that PC is impossble. We can't possibly document every aspect of life from a past era, and if we could it would be impossible to duplicate that time. We don't think like they did, we don't have the cultural conditioning they did.
Even if we could perfectly duplicate the actions and attitudes of the 18th or 19th century, it would be illigal to carry many of the standard behaviors out. What was normal in that day would cause lawsuits and riots today. Gender, race and social class attitudes were entirely different then.
All we can do is view our activities as either recreational hobbies, where about anything goes as long as it's fun, or as educational endevors, where we maintain PC where possible an wing it the rest of the time.
When we get so involved with PC that our activities stop being fun we lose participation from anyone we arn't paying to be there, and our events come to an end. Personally, I'd rather have events that are "pretty close" instead of no events at all, and "pretty close" is all we can do any way.
I was looking at a painting of Daniel Morgan the other day. Nice rifle frock, powder horn, shooting bag, leggings and Moccs shown in the painting. It would have make good documentation for a rev war outfit, except for the fact that it was a copy of another painting, that had been coppied from a pencil sketch. The pencil sketch had shown Morgan in a full dress uniform and the final painting was done 20 years after Morgan's death by an English painter who never knew Morgan or visited America.
Getting it close is all anyone can do.

 

[Claude Mathis]

The only thing we could agree on then, and the same is true now, is that PC is impossble.

Well that's just great, now we having nothing to fight about.:haha:

All we can do is view our activities as either recreational hobbies, where about anything goes as long as it's fun, or as educational endevors, where we maintain PC where possible an wing it the rest of the time.

I agree. I think the problem comes when the two above groups start debating, not realizing they are in two different camps.

 

[musketman]

Ain't it the truth. I'm sure they didn't have the free time we have to play at being somebody from history, even if the thought occurred to them.

We don't know that for sure...

They just may not have wrote it down...

There may very well have been a few "want-a-be" Napoleons out there...
:haha:

 

[Stumpkiller]

When we're worn out our last pair of mocs and are standing before The Big Booshway, It may be better to say "I had fun and met some good people" instead of "At least I got my great-coat right unlike old so-and-so."

 

[Claude Mathis]

When we're worn out our last pair of mocs and are standing before The Big Booshway, It may be better to say "I had fun and met some good people" instead of "At least I got my great-coat right unlike old so-and-so."

Amen! I'll drink to that. (from a PC jug, of course) :winking:

 

[Rancocas]

Whether it is PC or not, I sewed a sheath to the strap of my shooting bag for a 3 inched bladed patch knife. However, not being a professional leatherworker, the knife fits a bit loosely in the sheath.
Now, when I'm out hunting I sometimes get down and dirty by actually crawling on my hands and knees on game trails through the thickets. While doing this one day, I lost my patch knife. It had fallen out of the sheath. However, I went crawling back along the trail and did find the knife again.
Now I tie a throng around the butt of the knife to hold it into the sheath. But, that makes its use more inconvient. So, I find myself just reaching for my belt knife instead.
I'm getting ready to make a new shooting bag. This one will not have a knife attached to it.