Powder charge vs velocity?

[RocketMan58]

Hi all, I've been searching around the net and particularly this website in hopes of finding some info on powder charge vs resultant velocity with patched balls in different calibers. So far, I can only find a stray post here and there on a specific gun caliber. I do understand that beyond caliber, powder brand , barrel length and ball/patch configuration all have impact on these numbers but was hoping that someone, somewhere has compiled some baseline info into a table somewhere. So, to the point.... Does such a resource exist?

 

[longcruise]

I have some data on increasing powder charges in a 45 TC. It's somewhere on my desktop and I'll get it off later if I get the time.

 

[Trev]

you might be interested in "Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual", it has almost 200 pages of test results with various rifles, pistols and revolvers, not full coverage by any means but they looked at a few barrel lengths and a few charges for each.

 

[Freedom]

Using this calculator with 3fffg Swiss, is spot-on according to my chronograph testing with Swiss and Olde Eynsford.

https://www.p-max.uk/black_powder.htm

 

[BoomStick]

Using this calculator with 3fffg Swiss, is spot-on according to my chronograph testing with Swiss and Olde Eynsford.

https://www.p-max.uk/black_powder.htm

I've found this to be a very helpful tool, both getting a starting load as well as figuring a point of diminishing returns on more powder.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Using this calculator with 3fffg Swiss, is spot-on according to my chronograph testing with Swiss and Olde Eynsford.

https://www.p-max.uk/black_powder.htm

Hmmmmmm ... that program calculates off charge weight, not volume and the new Goex formula weighs 10% less than the previous formula (at least by our testing) whilst delivering the same velocity for the same amout of a volume-thrown charge.

Hmmmmmm ... this should be interesting!

 

[Freedom]

Hmmmmmm ... that program calculates off charge weight, not volume and the new Goex formula weighs 10% less than the previous formula (at least by our testing) whilst delivering the same velocity for the same amout of a volume-thrown charge.

Hmmmmmm ... this should be interesting!

Well if you're 100 grain "measuring device" doesn't throw a hundred grains of powder by scale weight... it's NOT a 100 grains is it....

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Well if you're 100 grain "measuring device" doesn't throw a hundred grains of powder by scale weight... it's NOT a 100 grains is it....

Well, you might believe that ... and I'd agree with you ... but then we both would be wrong. You must understand that for porous materials, the density varies with moisture content, in a similar manner as to where fuel varies in volume by temperature, which is why aircraft measure their fuel load and burn by pounds (Weight) and not gallons (Volume). Afterall ... physics doesn't lie, lol!

For black powdah, you should realize that each brand powder or by the given production lot of the powder or even the age of said powder, each may have a DIFFERENT powder density. As such, 100-grains thrown by Volume DOES NOT necessarily equal 100-grains by scale weight.

And as suspected - by actual scientific data, and not mere observations or beliefs - whereas the new Goex formula does weigh less, the data does not correspond to that calculator.

New Goex FPS of 70grns Weighed = 1740 - - - As calculated = 1825, or 4.8% faster

New Goex FPS of 80grns Weighed = 1857 - - - As calculated = 1921, or 3.4% faster

Most interesting, whereas "we" have found new Goex to weigh ~9% less for the 2 pounds cans we separately tested, if we work that 9% delta back into the calculation, then it does correlate within a very small FPS error, of which I would proclaim is well within the standard of error for such calculations. That actually proves my point that new Goex formula has a different powder density when weighed than the old formulation did.

New Goex FPS of 70grns Weighed = 1740 - - - As calculated by a 'Corrected ~9% delta' = 1759, or 1% faster

New Goex FPS of 80grns Weighed = 1857 - - - As calculated by a 'Corrected ~9% delta' = 1853, or 0.02% slower

 

[RocketMan58]

Gentlemen, Thanks MUCH for the quick response. I believe between the reference to the Lyman book (which I didn't know existed) and the link to the calculator, I can extrapolate any data I may want. I've already ordered the book and will playing around with this (excellent) calculator in comparing loads for my 40 and 45 cal rifles tonight. Again, I don't need exacting figures, just comparative estimates as starting points. I'm thinking the calculator may even allow me to estimate comparative recoil across various rifles in various calibers. ( Retired mechanical engineer here so I like tech stuff ) Tight groups!

 

[Trev]

Well if you're 100 grain "measuring device" doesn't throw a hundred grains of powder by scale weight... it's NOT a 100 grains is it....

A "Grain" is a measure of weight, each grain being 1/7000 of a pound. Our measures are not capable of weighing, they contain a certain volume, a fixed number of cubic inches or of cubic millimeters/cc, etc. The key is Volume, the measures always measure only volume.
No one's volume measure throws exactly what it's meant to throw, not mine nor yours nor his. If it's designed around one powder size and density, say for example Goex 2F as it was made in year 2000, then it might throw very near the design weight of Goex FFG over a several year time span, but close is just close. Every batch of powder can be slightly different in both granular size and density. Then if we use a 2F volume me4asure to dip 3F it will give us something 8-10% more (according to what I've read) by weight, mostly because with large particles we are measuring a lot more air between the particles than with the finer particles of 3F. So if we measure a 100gn volume of FFFG in an FFG measure it will weigh more than 100gn, on a scale and if we took a 100 grains volume of FG powder in that same 100gn measure designed around FFG and weighed it we would find it weighing less than 100gn on a scale.
Largely why people shooting FFFG get higher chronograph readings than with the same volume of FFG. Of course the smaller granules also burn faster from the outside than larger granules do and that means more of the fine powder is burned within a given time or barrel length, and that would add some speed.
It's really only possible to correctly measure weight by volume with liquids like water that always have the same density, at a given temperature.
If you have a scale, it's easy to demonstrate by measuring, then weighing first a cup of flour and then a cup of Wheaties, both forms of wheat but having different densities, you will probably also be able to see the air space between flakes easier than the spaces between the flour particles.
You can even use your powder measure with any powder of your choice then with any size lead shot. Weigh both measures on a scale, the lead should weigh more.

 

[Grenadier1758]

About 24 years ago I spent some time with my balance beam scale and my collection of measures to see just how accurate those measures were. I used the setting of 100 grains by volume. What we can see is that 3Fg powder is denser than 2Fg and I weighed out a heavier charge by weight for the 3Fg GOEX. Sounds as if I need to get some new GOEX and spend some time at the scale again. A few of the measures were pretty close to the indicated weight of the powder. There were differences between some of the brands of measures. I have recently done some checks of my volume loads with GOEX produced before the purchase by Estes. They were very close to measurements of 24 years ago.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/how-many-grains-in-a-pound.138868/page-4#post-1943140

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

A "Grain" is a measure of weight, each grain being 1/7000 of a pound. Our measures are not capable of weighing, they contain a certain volume, a fixed number of cubic inches or of cubic millimeters/cc, etc. The key is Volume, the measures always measure only volume.
No one's volume measure throws exactly what it's meant to throw, not mine nor yours nor his. If it's designed around one powder size and density, say for example Goex 2F as it was made in year 2000, then it might throw very near the design weight of Goex FFG over a several year time span, but close is just close. Every batch of powder can be slightly different in both granular size and density. Then if we use a 2F volume me4asure to dip 3F it will give us something 8-10% more (according to what I've read) by weight, mostly because with large particles we are measuring a lot more air between the particles than with the finer particles of 3F. So if we measure a 100gn volume of FFFG in an FFG measure it will weigh more than 100gn, on a scale and if we took a 100 grains volume of FG powder in that same 100gn measure designed around FFG and weighed it we would find it weighing less than 100gn on a scale.
Largely why people shooting FFFG get higher chronograph readings than with the same volume of FFG. Of course the smaller granules also burn faster from the outside than larger granules do and that means more of the fine powder is burned within a given time or barrel length, and that would add some speed.
It's really only possible to correctly measure weight by volume with liquids like water that always have the same density, at a given temperature.
If you have a scale, it's easy to demonstrate by measuring, then weighing first a cup of flour and then a cup of Wheaties, both forms of wheat but having different densities, you will probably also be able to see the air space between flakes easier than the spaces between the flour particles.
You can even use your powder measure with any powder of your choice then with any size lead shot. Weigh both measures on a scale, the lead should weigh more.

Trev, you are mostly correct about this but Freedom is 100% correct. You are going about it backwards, you determine volume on your particular powder by weight then adjust, fabricate, create a measure that throws that volume. In other words, every powder even of same brand or granulation needs to be weighed and volume measurement adjusted accordingly. Your assertions only work if you insist in using a “predetermine” stamped measure, like those made out of brass in Italy . If you have the ability make your own out of copper piping or brass centerfire shell and buy enough powder of the same lot to make it worth it. Like Freedom said, if your 100 grs measure is not throwing a 100 grains is not a 100 grs measure for that particular powder!. ..That simple!

 

[Grenadier1758]

For most of our shooting, if the 100 grain volume measure is throwing 102 grains of 2F or 104 grains of 3F, we aren't likely to see much differenced on our hunting results or our woods walk scores.

 

[Absoroka]

Playing with different weights, volumes, brands and granulations is fun and good entertainment at the range. Short of experienced bench rest shooters, I am with Grenadier, very few shooters could out shoot the difference.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

Playing with different weights, volumes, brands and granulations is fun and good entertainment at the range. Short of experienced bench rest shooters, I am with Grenadier, very few shooters could out shoot the difference.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

My apologies for the double post, yes, I agree, but that has nothing to do with the fact that if you have a 100 grs measure that throw 90 for a particular powder, you have a measure that throws 90! If you can hit every target using that measure it’s great, but be advised that you are shooting 90, not 100. I guess that was my point, dunno, I suppose!!

 

[Rock Home Isle]

This publication is a great resource for Blackpowder shooting in muzzleloading rifles. For your specific question, look through the data tables for each calibre. You’re going to need to make sure that barrel length and powder type (ffg, fffg) are consistent.

For each powder charge you’ll be able to read the corresponding velocity, for that length of barrel.

Based on this data, it’s readily apparent that the .54 calibre is a very efficient calibre

 

[longcruise]

Hi all, I've been searching around the net and particularly this website in hopes of finding some info on powder charge vs resultant velocity with patched balls in different calibers. So far, I can only find a stray post here and there on a specific gun caliber. I do understand that beyond caliber, powder brand , barrel length and ball/patch configuration all have impact on these numbers but was hoping that someone, somewhere has compiled some baseline info into a table somewhere. So, to the point.... Does such a resource exist?

Getting back to the OP's question. I promised this earlier but a great grandson decided to join us 5 weeks early so I haven't been doing anything on the desk top. This is only for a 45 caliber and would be more extensive but I ran out of powder.



Shot on 05/30/10 with TC .45, goex 3f, wally duck patch, spit lube.

50grains
1517

70 grains
1680 +163

90 grains
1865+185

120 grains
2031 +166

In terms of weight vs volume, it really is a waste of time unless you want to weigh each charge or if you are making a powder measure to match the charge thrown by another powder measure.

Here are some actual weights of charges dropped from an RCBS powder measure. As you can see, Volume and weight are all over the map.


BP Weight Comparisons done by measuring charges dropped from an RCBS measure at an arbitrary setting.

Graf3f
55.9
55.5
55.5
55.3
-------
55.55

Goex2f
51.1
51.7
51.3
51.4
-------
51.37

Goex3f
52.2
52.1
52.5
52.2
--------
52.25

Elephant2f
60.2
60.4
60.4
60.1
---------
60.27

Swiss1.5f
55.9
56.1
56.4
56.2
------
56.15

Swiss 2f
57.4
57.2
57.2
57.4
-------
57.30

PyrodexRS
37.0
37.1
37.5
36.8
-------
37.10

And, here's a good reason to gather your own ballistic data if it really matters to you. These are velocities of various powders dropped from the same volumetric measure showing the actual weight of the powder and the actual velocities. Velocities are averages but abbreviated to show only the average.


Elephant 2f Actual weight in grains 60.27 - Avg velocity 1201

Swiss 2f Actual weight in grains 57.30 - Avg velocity 1552

Graf 3f Actual weight in grains 55.55 - Avg velocity 1390

Goex 3f actual weight in grains 52.25 - Avg velocity 1492

Goex 2f Actual weight in grains 51.37 - Avg velocity 1362

 

[RocketMan58]

Getting back to the OP's question. I promised this earlier but a great grandson decided to join us 5 weeks early so I haven't been doing anything on the desk top. This is only for a 45 caliber and would be more extensive but I ran out of powder.



Shot on 05/30/10 with TC .45, goex 3f, wally duck patch, spit lube.

50grains
1517

70 grains
1680 +163

90 grains
1865+185

120 grains
2031 +166

In terms of weight vs volume, it really is a waste of time unless you want to weigh each charge or if you are making a powder measure to match the charge thrown by another powder measure.

Here are some actual weights of charges dropped from an RCBS powder measure. As you can see, Volume and weight are all over the map.


BP Weight Comparisons done by measuring charges dropped from an RCBS measure at an arbitrary setting.

Graf3f
55.9
55.5
55.5
55.3
-------
55.55

Goex2f
51.1
51.7
51.3
51.4
-------
51.37

Goex3f
52.2
52.1
52.5
52.2
--------
52.25

Elephant2f
60.2
60.4
60.4
60.1
---------
60.27

Swiss1.5f
55.9
56.1
56.4
56.2
------
56.15

Swiss 2f
57.4
57.2
57.2
57.4
-------
57.30

PyrodexRS
37.0
37.1
37.5
36.8
-------
37.10

And, here's a good reason to gather your own ballistic data if it really matters to you. These are velocities of various powders dropped from the same volumetric measure showing the actual weight of the powder and the actual velocities. Velocities are averages but abbreviated to show only the average.


Elephant 2f Actual weight in grains 60.27 - Avg velocity 1201

Swiss 2f Actual weight in grains 57.30 - Avg velocity 1552

Graf 3f Actual weight in grains 55.55 - Avg velocity 1390

Goex 3f actual weight in grains 52.25 - Avg velocity 1492

Goex 2f Actual weight in grains 51.37 - Avg velocity 1362

Thanks Much! That is helpful info. I knew there were variations but this frames them nicely. I've got older stock Goex and Elephant on hand as well as several pounds of Swiss . I plan to use the swiss and use the others as back-up should I ever get low on stock.

 

[kyron4]

View attachment 380694
This publication is a great resource for Blackpowder shooting in muzzleloading rifles. For your specific question, look through the data tables for each calibre. You’re going to need to make sure that barrel length and powder type (ffg, fffg) are consistent.

For each powder charge you’ll be able to read the corresponding velocity, for that length of barrel.

Based on this data, it’s readily apparent that the .54 calibre is a very efficient calibre

I just bought a copy of this book. It's on it's way now and I can't wait to crack into it.