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Powder Crunching
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paulvallandigham
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Use a bathroom scale under the butt of the gun to get consistent pressure when loading. That one stroke method may be good for using testosterone, but its unsafe, and you are using the large muscles in your arms when you should be using fine motor nerves and small muscles to seat that ball carefully. Always mark your ramrod, and load to the mark. Short strokes allow you to get there, while that unsafe single stroke may or may not get your there, because you don't have the benefit of your small muscles and nerves to feel that " crunch".
I load to the mark and just touch the powder in my flintlocks for the best shot for shot consistency. In my cap and ball rifle, I would also load to a mark, which would require compression of the powder. However, I didn't bounce the ramrod to flatten the ball, or distort its shape. I would take the ball down the barrel in short strokes, and when it began to crunch, then I would put pressure on it to bring it down to my mark. That gave the best consistency without dragging that scale out into the field. The guys that were bouncing their ramrods out of their barrels could never shoot a consistent group, and eventually stopped coming to shooting matches. They would not learn from others, or listen to the rest of us, or even watch what we were doing when we shot better scores. They had a thousand alibis for why they didn't shoot the top score that day, but they would not check out the successful shooters and see what they were doing differently time after time. It was always the gun, or the barrel, or the Patch and ball combination, or the ball to bore fit, or the different brand of caps, or balls used, etc.
I would like to think that now that chronographs can be purchased at a reasonable price, people will begin using them to test one component of a loading process after another, changing only one thing at a time, and recording velocities, and examining the sdv to learn what REALLY works, and what is so much hot air.
I load to the mark and just touch the powder in my flintlocks for the best shot for shot consistency. In my cap and ball rifle, I would also load to a mark, which would require compression of the powder. However, I didn't bounce the ramrod to flatten the ball, or distort its shape. I would take the ball down the barrel in short strokes, and when it began to crunch, then I would put pressure on it to bring it down to my mark. That gave the best consistency without dragging that scale out into the field. The guys that were bouncing their ramrods out of their barrels could never shoot a consistent group, and eventually stopped coming to shooting matches. They would not learn from others, or listen to the rest of us, or even watch what we were doing when we shot better scores. They had a thousand alibis for why they didn't shoot the top score that day, but they would not check out the successful shooters and see what they were doing differently time after time. It was always the gun, or the barrel, or the Patch and ball combination, or the ball to bore fit, or the different brand of caps, or balls used, etc.
I would like to think that now that chronographs can be purchased at a reasonable price, people will begin using them to test one component of a loading process after another, changing only one thing at a time, and recording velocities, and examining the sdv to learn what REALLY works, and what is so much hot air.
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I have never understood the reasoning behind bouncing a ramrod, but many shooters do it. I think some believe that it tells them the ball is on the powder. They are probably just copying bad habits from others.
Smokey in Oz
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I assumed it was called a 'ramrod' for good reason, ramming the ball home. It seems I might have to experiment with my tecnique, thanks guys.
Smokey. :bow:
Smokey. :bow:
IMO, you've hit the nail right on the head!Wick Ellerbe said:
And also IMO, I think this hobby / sport has a lot of things in it like that...whether it's bouncing ramrods, or 1:48's won't shoot RBs accurately, aligning patch weave with the front sight, blowing down barrels, etc, etc, etc...some things seem to have been simply accepted on their faith "because that's how so and so's grandpa did it".
I think those things have a certain amount of charm and we're all richer for knowing about them because it shines a light on "how it was done back in the day"...but after harsher examination today with more knowledge and understanding of such things, some of them really don't have much merit.
I'm a bouncer. I do it because I've always done it. Never had a problem with accuracy either.Wick Ellerbe said:
In order to shoot accurately you have to have faith in your load/loading procedures. When I see that ramrod spring back it gives me faith.
You are right though, most black powder shooter practice a certain amount of witchcraft in their loading.
IMHO that's part of the charm.
I try to load my gun the same way every time to keep my shots as consistent as possible. My gun shoots best with 2f so it seems to me that a tight pack of the power would only hinder my accuracy.
What I do is put in the powder and use the heal of my hand and tap the gun 3 times down by the breach to settle the powder. Then I place the patch over the barrel and center the ball just as much as possible and then use the starter. (a well centered patch will go a long way to improve your accuracy.) And then I drive the ball down to the powder with short strokes. (my rpb is not a really tight fit and I never worry about damage to the ball.) When I feel the ball hit home I give it only 2 light taps with the rod for a nice light seat.
That's just what I have found to work best for my 50 cal Blue Ridge Pedersoli. Did I mention I took 2nd place in our club last year? :blah: LOL
In short I guess I would say if you buy power in a specific grain, why would you pound the ball down so hard that you change the size of the grain? :nono:
RJ
What I do is put in the powder and use the heal of my hand and tap the gun 3 times down by the breach to settle the powder. Then I place the patch over the barrel and center the ball just as much as possible and then use the starter. (a well centered patch will go a long way to improve your accuracy.) And then I drive the ball down to the powder with short strokes. (my rpb is not a really tight fit and I never worry about damage to the ball.) When I feel the ball hit home I give it only 2 light taps with the rod for a nice light seat.
That's just what I have found to work best for my 50 cal Blue Ridge Pedersoli. Did I mention I took 2nd place in our club last year? :blah: LOL
In short I guess I would say if you buy power in a specific grain, why would you pound the ball down so hard that you change the size of the grain? :nono:
RJ
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roundball said:
I make a concerted effort not to get my body over the muzzle when loading (hands can't be avoided). Just got through reading about a guy who had a muzzleloader go off while reloading...
Do you use a spring scale or digital? I find the spring scale a bit heavy and cumbersom for my shoulder bag, but a small digital scale may work just fine. I noted in the L&C letters that they always used a spring scale-- but I know well that digital was surely not invented by this early date.(no batteries available?) Any way, :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull:
paulvallandigham
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Sidelock: I don't use a scale at all. I wouldn't want to carry one to the range, much less into the field. If you read my prior post, you would not have asked the question.
The reason I don't use a scale is because I knew this was not how it was done ages ago, and that there had to be a way to get consistency without crushing powder. In my flinters, I just touch the powder, and eventually mark my ramrod so I can just load to the mark. With Percussion, I hold the barrel vertical, so that my barrel becomes a long drop tube, and that compacts my FFFg powder just fine. Because I don't use a scale, and I don't want to deform a ball I have worked so hard to mold, weigh, sort, and carry to the range, I seat it gently onto the powder, and get fine accuracy out of the gun. I did have to round the crown some more on one Percussion rifle because the edges were cutting my patches, and nicking the balls. But, once I rounded those edges, my accuracy went up dramatically. I think it is Mark Lewis who was always recommending using a thicker patch, and smaller diameter ball on the forum here. He had a point about that, within reason.
The boys who are constantly talking about using a thin patch and tight ball are taking their cues from the 1880s target shooters, who introduced the false muzzle, and conical bullets to muzzle loaders, and perfected accuracy using tight patching, and ball combinations. In the Chunk gun shooting game today, we see men using ' Teflon " patches, oversize balls which, when driven into the barrels become elongated bullets with round noses and round bottoms, still in that near indestructable teflon patch. They are not really shooting a PRB any more, but a conical bullet in a synthetic patch material. They increase the velocities to over 2000 fps, which you normally could not do with a PRB, and shoot very small groups at 60 yds, well before their loads come down in velocity to get near the transonic barrier. If those same loads were fired at 100 yds, or 150 yds, they would not be as accurate as they seem to be at the shorter ranges. But that is the game that is played.
FWIW, a ramrod got its name when muskets were given steel ramrods, to immitate those used to load cannons, with a fat wide button on the working end of the rod. The round ball, and later the minie ball, were undersized purposely, and the " Ramming" was intended to help upset the pure lead ball so it filled the diameter of the smoothbore musket into which it was loaded. Ramming the ball home was required because there was no way to clean the bores between shots, and residue quickly built up in these muskets, making it difficult to seat a ball on the powder even with the full force of a man's arm as he Rammed the ramrod on the ball to get it past the crud.
There is no reason in using these historical factors to justify using a ramrod that way with a rifled barrel, or for that matter, with a smoothbore. You are not in a battle with the gun, so you have the time to clean between shots. You can make or buy balls that are closer to the diameter of the bore, and you can test various fabrics to find one that is the right thickness of patching for your gunbarrel.We have loading rods with jags made to hold cleaning patches, wonderful lubes, spit, and just plain water, or alcohol to use to clean that barrel and maintain the firearm properly. Those British regulars, and Hessian mercenaries did not have those luxuries. And they were fighting for their lives, thousands of miles from home. Different rules apply. Bouncing a ramrod on a ball does nothing but distort the face of the ball, decreasing potential accuracy, but worse, because you can't deface the balls the same shot after shot, you create a factor for eratic shooting that was not present when you sorted the balls by weight and appearance before loading. I knew one man who showed me his ramrod would go down in the barrel about 1/8" by bouncing it 2 or 3 times, and he claimed this was needed to seat the ball on the powder. After looking at the jag on the end of the rod, I was convinced he had just flattened the RB out that much, and hadn't moved the ball any at all. We later found out that because he did not clean between shots, he had a ring of residue that built up just where the ball seated in the barrel, and it was this ring that he was having to push past to reach his mark. His balls were flattened, and his accuracy, even from a bench, was lousy! We got him to clean between shots, stop bouncing that ramrod on the ball, and he had no more problems loading to the mark, and his groups began to shrink immediately.
Instead of pursuing these folk forms, go to a large shooting match, find out from older shooters- you know the guys with all those annual badges or pins on their hats showing how many of these shoots they have attended- who are the best shooters. Then go and watch the top 5 or 10 shooters load their guns and shoot. Pay attention to what they do and what they don't do. Talk to them about why they don't do something you were told to do. Ask them why they do something differently. Do this between matches, so you don't interrupt their loading procedure. Nobody wants to dryball a gun at a major match!
The reason I don't use a scale is because I knew this was not how it was done ages ago, and that there had to be a way to get consistency without crushing powder. In my flinters, I just touch the powder, and eventually mark my ramrod so I can just load to the mark. With Percussion, I hold the barrel vertical, so that my barrel becomes a long drop tube, and that compacts my FFFg powder just fine. Because I don't use a scale, and I don't want to deform a ball I have worked so hard to mold, weigh, sort, and carry to the range, I seat it gently onto the powder, and get fine accuracy out of the gun. I did have to round the crown some more on one Percussion rifle because the edges were cutting my patches, and nicking the balls. But, once I rounded those edges, my accuracy went up dramatically. I think it is Mark Lewis who was always recommending using a thicker patch, and smaller diameter ball on the forum here. He had a point about that, within reason.
The boys who are constantly talking about using a thin patch and tight ball are taking their cues from the 1880s target shooters, who introduced the false muzzle, and conical bullets to muzzle loaders, and perfected accuracy using tight patching, and ball combinations. In the Chunk gun shooting game today, we see men using ' Teflon " patches, oversize balls which, when driven into the barrels become elongated bullets with round noses and round bottoms, still in that near indestructable teflon patch. They are not really shooting a PRB any more, but a conical bullet in a synthetic patch material. They increase the velocities to over 2000 fps, which you normally could not do with a PRB, and shoot very small groups at 60 yds, well before their loads come down in velocity to get near the transonic barrier. If those same loads were fired at 100 yds, or 150 yds, they would not be as accurate as they seem to be at the shorter ranges. But that is the game that is played.
FWIW, a ramrod got its name when muskets were given steel ramrods, to immitate those used to load cannons, with a fat wide button on the working end of the rod. The round ball, and later the minie ball, were undersized purposely, and the " Ramming" was intended to help upset the pure lead ball so it filled the diameter of the smoothbore musket into which it was loaded. Ramming the ball home was required because there was no way to clean the bores between shots, and residue quickly built up in these muskets, making it difficult to seat a ball on the powder even with the full force of a man's arm as he Rammed the ramrod on the ball to get it past the crud.
There is no reason in using these historical factors to justify using a ramrod that way with a rifled barrel, or for that matter, with a smoothbore. You are not in a battle with the gun, so you have the time to clean between shots. You can make or buy balls that are closer to the diameter of the bore, and you can test various fabrics to find one that is the right thickness of patching for your gunbarrel.We have loading rods with jags made to hold cleaning patches, wonderful lubes, spit, and just plain water, or alcohol to use to clean that barrel and maintain the firearm properly. Those British regulars, and Hessian mercenaries did not have those luxuries. And they were fighting for their lives, thousands of miles from home. Different rules apply. Bouncing a ramrod on a ball does nothing but distort the face of the ball, decreasing potential accuracy, but worse, because you can't deface the balls the same shot after shot, you create a factor for eratic shooting that was not present when you sorted the balls by weight and appearance before loading. I knew one man who showed me his ramrod would go down in the barrel about 1/8" by bouncing it 2 or 3 times, and he claimed this was needed to seat the ball on the powder. After looking at the jag on the end of the rod, I was convinced he had just flattened the RB out that much, and hadn't moved the ball any at all. We later found out that because he did not clean between shots, he had a ring of residue that built up just where the ball seated in the barrel, and it was this ring that he was having to push past to reach his mark. His balls were flattened, and his accuracy, even from a bench, was lousy! We got him to clean between shots, stop bouncing that ramrod on the ball, and he had no more problems loading to the mark, and his groups began to shrink immediately.
Instead of pursuing these folk forms, go to a large shooting match, find out from older shooters- you know the guys with all those annual badges or pins on their hats showing how many of these shoots they have attended- who are the best shooters. Then go and watch the top 5 or 10 shooters load their guns and shoot. Pay attention to what they do and what they don't do. Talk to them about why they don't do something you were told to do. Ask them why they do something differently. Do this between matches, so you don't interrupt their loading procedure. Nobody wants to dryball a gun at a major match!
Paul,
I would be interested to see what you consider unsafe and dangerous about seating a ball with constant even preasure in one stroke. No one said anything about massive amounts of force, just constant even preasure. If your barrel is clean and you have the proper patch/ ball combination you should be able to seat the ball consistantly with the same amount of preasure everytime and feel the ball as it starts to compress the powder...
I would be interested to see what you consider unsafe and dangerous about seating a ball with constant even preasure in one stroke. No one said anything about massive amounts of force, just constant even preasure. If your barrel is clean and you have the proper patch/ ball combination you should be able to seat the ball consistantly with the same amount of preasure everytime and feel the ball as it starts to compress the powder...
I used one method to arrive at another. When I was working up a load for my .36, I'd push the ball home with short strokes (I use a hickory rod and I hear they hurt when puncturing your hands) and give it a light bounce to be sure I was on the powder.
Once I found my powder load (40gr FFFg) I did the same thing, but only once. With the rod in the bore, I marked it. Now I just use my short strokes to get my "loaded" mark to the muzzle. No more bouncing because I know it's seated.
Once I found my powder load (40gr FFFg) I did the same thing, but only once. With the rod in the bore, I marked it. Now I just use my short strokes to get my "loaded" mark to the muzzle. No more bouncing because I know it's seated.
paulvallandigham
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I don't do certain things because its a bad habit that requires too many if's to do safely. IF the barrel is clean, IF you have the proper ball and patch for the bore, IF you can maintain constant, even, but slow pressure. A lot of " IFs ". Then one day one or all those things is missing- someone interrupts you and you think you cleaned the barrel after that last shot, but didn't, or you think you have the right sized ball for the gun, but instead grabbed some that are .005 larger, and You think you are going slow and even, but you are in a hurry to catch up and get your shots off within the relay time, so you slam that rod down just a little faster until it meets up with " Hell-NO!-you aren't-going-here! and then the rod breaks and half of it is sticking in your forearm. Not a pretty picture. I do the things the safest way so I don't have to worry about trying to cut corners, and paying that price. I have made my share of stupid mistakes in my life, and have my scars to prove it. Using major muscle groups to do a job best done with small muscles is not one of them. Obviously, some people's experience is different than mine.
Years ago, I watched a young shooter, whose father had taught him to shoot, and had dragged him out to the skeet and trap fields shooting guns, but starting with a single shot break open gun on the skeet field, then graduating to an over and under shotgun. He would do as Skeet shooter often do, and that is rest the muzzle of his barrels on the toe of his shoe. With a break open gun, where he, and anyone around can see he is not loaded, and with range rules not allowing him to load the gun until its his turn to shoot, violating that basic safety rule that you never point a gun at any part of your body, or anything you don't want to destroy could be overlooked. I didn't like it, but I understood it. He was safe. Then, one day, I saw him walk out on the range with his father's semi auto 12 ga. shotgun. He tried to put a badly formed reloaded hull into the chamber and it would not fall. Instead of pulling it out of the gun and throwing it away, he released the bolt, and then rested the muzzle of the shotgun on his foot, while he pounded the bolt handle with the palm of his hand. That is when I began yelling. I got him to stop, even though he was mad at me for making him do so. His father heard the commotion, and came running out of the clubhouse, ready to pick a fight with me for stopping his kid from doing he didn't know what. I stood my ground with the SOB, and told him exactly what his son was doing that I didn't think was very safe, and I told him I thought his son's foot would look better withour a 3/4" diameter hole through it! He backed down, cussed me as he walked away with his kid, and that was the last I heard from him. Instead of saying thank you, this idiot was ready to get in a fist fight with me. He had a reputation for being both a hot head, and a crook, and the other shooters there did not like him. After he got out of earshot, they came up and complimented me on having the courage to take on the teenager, who was just as bad as his father. I guess being a lawyer has given me lots of practice of taking charge. I told them the club could be sued for every dime it had for allowing that kid to be on the range unsupervised, and no adult paying attention to his safety violations.
So, If I sound a little tight when it comes to issues of safety, I confess it. I am a real bear about safety. I have sued people for being boneheads, and I have defended people who have been sued. I got to know idiots really well as an Assistant Public Defender. And, I have taught Hunter Safety for 24 years because I firmly believe that only about 1% of all hunting accidents are truly accidents, that would happen regardless of how safety conscious the shooter was. That means there are lots of " accidents " that should not have happened. Vice President Richard " Dick " Cheney can tell us about that first hand. I have had some accidental(unintended) discharges, but because I am always aware of where the muzzle of the gun is pointing, I have not had any unintended hits. One was due to mechanical failure. The other was pilot error.
I do the hand over hand loading method, and load to the mark on my ramrods. I don't wrap my thumbs around my fingers to make a closed fist around the rod. I face one hand towards me, and the other faced away from me, so that if a spark sets off the charge, the ball and the ramrod will not take off my thumb, or my fingers. The natural reaction response to pain to your fingers is to open your hand, not close it. By keeping my thumb away from that rod, the fingers can open up and at most I will get some burns on the hand lowest to the muzzle when the gun goes off, and a face full of smoke and powder. I will still have all my fingers, and both thumbs. How often this kind of thing happens does not matter when you are the one it happens to. That is what safety is all about.
Years ago, I watched a young shooter, whose father had taught him to shoot, and had dragged him out to the skeet and trap fields shooting guns, but starting with a single shot break open gun on the skeet field, then graduating to an over and under shotgun. He would do as Skeet shooter often do, and that is rest the muzzle of his barrels on the toe of his shoe. With a break open gun, where he, and anyone around can see he is not loaded, and with range rules not allowing him to load the gun until its his turn to shoot, violating that basic safety rule that you never point a gun at any part of your body, or anything you don't want to destroy could be overlooked. I didn't like it, but I understood it. He was safe. Then, one day, I saw him walk out on the range with his father's semi auto 12 ga. shotgun. He tried to put a badly formed reloaded hull into the chamber and it would not fall. Instead of pulling it out of the gun and throwing it away, he released the bolt, and then rested the muzzle of the shotgun on his foot, while he pounded the bolt handle with the palm of his hand. That is when I began yelling. I got him to stop, even though he was mad at me for making him do so. His father heard the commotion, and came running out of the clubhouse, ready to pick a fight with me for stopping his kid from doing he didn't know what. I stood my ground with the SOB, and told him exactly what his son was doing that I didn't think was very safe, and I told him I thought his son's foot would look better withour a 3/4" diameter hole through it! He backed down, cussed me as he walked away with his kid, and that was the last I heard from him. Instead of saying thank you, this idiot was ready to get in a fist fight with me. He had a reputation for being both a hot head, and a crook, and the other shooters there did not like him. After he got out of earshot, they came up and complimented me on having the courage to take on the teenager, who was just as bad as his father. I guess being a lawyer has given me lots of practice of taking charge. I told them the club could be sued for every dime it had for allowing that kid to be on the range unsupervised, and no adult paying attention to his safety violations.
So, If I sound a little tight when it comes to issues of safety, I confess it. I am a real bear about safety. I have sued people for being boneheads, and I have defended people who have been sued. I got to know idiots really well as an Assistant Public Defender. And, I have taught Hunter Safety for 24 years because I firmly believe that only about 1% of all hunting accidents are truly accidents, that would happen regardless of how safety conscious the shooter was. That means there are lots of " accidents " that should not have happened. Vice President Richard " Dick " Cheney can tell us about that first hand. I have had some accidental(unintended) discharges, but because I am always aware of where the muzzle of the gun is pointing, I have not had any unintended hits. One was due to mechanical failure. The other was pilot error.
I do the hand over hand loading method, and load to the mark on my ramrods. I don't wrap my thumbs around my fingers to make a closed fist around the rod. I face one hand towards me, and the other faced away from me, so that if a spark sets off the charge, the ball and the ramrod will not take off my thumb, or my fingers. The natural reaction response to pain to your fingers is to open your hand, not close it. By keeping my thumb away from that rod, the fingers can open up and at most I will get some burns on the hand lowest to the muzzle when the gun goes off, and a face full of smoke and powder. I will still have all my fingers, and both thumbs. How often this kind of thing happens does not matter when you are the one it happens to. That is what safety is all about.
Ok Paul,
You have made this into something much more that it started out to be. I said that I liked to seat a ball all in one consistant motion. Not bouncing or tapping. I never once said anything about using brute stregenth or the use of [as you said] "testosterone" All I ever spoke of is constant even preasure while seating a ball. You were the one who used the words "slam down the ball" Paul, I use an aluminum TC range rod with an extened jag. Total legenth 36" my rifle barrels are 28" and 30". I use one size ball for each cal. 490 for 50 cal 530 for my 54, as well. If a problem should occur I can feel it just as soon as you can. I never once spoke of the speed at which I seat my ball and you have jumped to your own conclusions. Saftey is my number one concern and for you to accuse me of cutting corners is absurd...Jim
You have made this into something much more that it started out to be. I said that I liked to seat a ball all in one consistant motion. Not bouncing or tapping. I never once said anything about using brute stregenth or the use of [as you said] "testosterone" All I ever spoke of is constant even preasure while seating a ball. You were the one who used the words "slam down the ball" Paul, I use an aluminum TC range rod with an extened jag. Total legenth 36" my rifle barrels are 28" and 30". I use one size ball for each cal. 490 for 50 cal 530 for my 54, as well. If a problem should occur I can feel it just as soon as you can. I never once spoke of the speed at which I seat my ball and you have jumped to your own conclusions. Saftey is my number one concern and for you to accuse me of cutting corners is absurd...Jim
Big John
45 Cal.
I posted the original one pull to seat the ball/patch.Unless you stand in front of the barrel it is a pull not a push. In the response all I see is IF.. I don't use wooden ramrods, only metal range rods, which don't break. The skeet story has nothing to do about seating a ball. If (there's that word again) there's any safety problem it's in reading a two page response that is made to make suppositions that were not said.IMHO :nono:
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