Powder granulation and short barrels?

[Danny Ross]

I preface this question with I know the gun will tell you what it wants. I am looking at getting a Lyman Deer Stalker with the 24 inch barrel 54 Cal Flintlock. Because of the shorter barrel would 3F be a better choice to start with in working up a load? The reason I am asking is, in my line of thinking the 3F burns faster, out of the short barrel you would get better velocity, and a more complete powder burn of the charge used compared to 2F. I have never owned a short barreled rifle, so I thought I would ask our fine panel of experts we have here. :bow: DANNY

 

[Adui]

A little out of my pruveiw, but a a SWAG Id probably start with 3f.. Being a 54 I might not but I used 3f (Pyrodex P anyhow) for years in my 50 with good results

 

[Jim Evans]

I would start with 70 gr of 3 F and I think it will do the job for you.
Use the tightest patch that you can load,Lyman seem to like tight patches.

 

[Billnpatti]

I use 3F in all of my muzzleloading guns regardless of the caliber. I like the fact that it burns cleaner and seems to give a more consistent MV. The only exception is that I used 2F in my shotgun. It seemed to prefer 2f otherwise, I would have used 3F and had only one granulation of powder to worry with....well, I do keep a small (

 

[Rifleman1776]

Your reasoning is fine. But, in reality, the difference in performance will be negligible. Personally, I choose 3Fg whenever I can because of cleaner burning characteristics. If you do try both, just ask yer ded deer which they preferred. :wink:

 

[M. De Land]

If your going to shoot a patched ball then the 3F makes sense in a 24 inch barrel but if a conical then I'd go with 2F.
I have a .58 Hawken Hunter with a heavy barrel made for Navy Arms in the 70s and it will consume all of 150 grains of 2F behind a 620 grain Maxi conical in a 26 inch barrel. A lot of this large powser charge would blow out the muzzle if a patched ball were used.
Course the recoil is such that your shoulder blades slap together in the back when you touch it off but the heavy conical will actually consume about 175 grains before it starts blowing out un-burned powder.
This load will produce under four inch groups at 100 yards if you can stand to shoot it.
I always use a PAST shoulder pad when bench shooting the gun and my sternum will hurt for a week after words.

 

[BrownBear]

In my wife's Deerstalker 54, 2f is noticeably louder than 3f. Same for a 24" 58 I shoot. Interesting enough, both of them are more accurate with 3f and foul noticeably less.

But we let the guns make their own choices, trying both 2f and 3f in each of them.

 

[hanshi]

I load, shoot and hunt with 24" barrels. The .50 I had, I hunted with for over 20 years and still have the .45. I use 3F for about everything and it always worked extremely well in the short barrels.

 

[Danny Ross]

I might use that load to hunt rabbits here in Ohio :youcrazy: . That is more like an African load for Cape Buffalo or Eland. Of coarse are rabbits are that size :bull: . DANNY

 

[Hermit]

Brown Bear what's the weight of that 54 deer staker?
Thanks
Hermit

 

[BrownBear]

Don't recall, but I bet it's on the Lyman site. Noticeably less than the GPR. Better yet for my wife's tastes, the 54 cal Deerstalker is noticeably lighter in the muzzle than the 50. She handled several rifles in the shop including the Deerstalker 50, and quickly glommed onto the 54. We have quite a few guns for her to choose among at home, and she keeps going back to the Deerstalker 54. Shoots it so well, I can't begin to question her choice!

 

[Rifleman1776]

150 grains of 2F behind a 620 grain Maxi conical

I felt the pain just reading that.
Are yer deer dedder using that cannon load?
Oh, well. Do wat floats yer stick. :v

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Quote:

150 grains of 2F behind a 620 grain Maxi conical

I felt the pain just reading that.
Are yer deer dedder using that cannon load?
Oh, well. Do wat floats yer stick.

I suppose being in Alaska and perhaps running into a Brown Bear or a Polar Bear one might not have time to grab a backup gun, and thus that load might do the trick.....

LD

 

[BrownBear]

I suppose being in Alaska and perhaps running into a Brown Bear or a Polar Bear one might not have time to grab a backup gun, and thus that load might do the trick.....

Bingo.

Having personally been on the receiving end of 5 charges in just over 40 Alaskan years, I'm a witness to just how fast they come at you. Been run over by horses and bulls a time or two in my misspent youth, and they're slowpokes in comparison.

Never had to pop a cap or flare a flint when charged, but only once in 5 times did I even have time to get the gun to my shoulder. And the bears started their charges from no closer than 30 yards.

Dunno if a big conical would stop one or not. But the thought of having to poke flesh certainly influences my choice of guns and loads. I don't place my bets on any measly little thing with a maiden's kiss of powder behind it when my hide is on the line. That critter by my signature is a well know neighbor I photographed from darned close, but I still don't bet on his better nature when I hunt in his terrain.

Better answer for me has been to simply bail out when I see bear sign or to avoid known bear concentrations altogether. Call me chicken and paint a yellow stripe up my back. But I'm a smart chicken still alive and scar-free. :thumbsup:

 

[larry wv]

Sounds like you have a good plan BB. :thumbsup:

 

[hanshi]

I totally understand. I had a black bear approach me so close I could have easily tossed him an apple and watch him smile. I was sitting on the ground at the time and figured he just wanted to have a looky-see. It worried me not a bit and he was already enormously fat and I like bears. But Mr Brown and old man Griz is a whole-nother-story.

 

[Herb]

The answer is no, depending on what powders you use. If only Goex 3F and 2F, the 3f should give more velocity, regardless of barrel length. For part of a comparison in a 24" .58 Leman flintlock I built, see "Shooting Accessories" board, my post of 2/06/18, "Powder Tests in a .58 Leman flint elk rifle". And The Hunting Journal, "A Utah Pronghorn Hunt" where I tested some powders in a 32" .50 caliber rifle I built. Since my .58 Leman post, I have shot more powders but not posted about them yet. For each powder, I made a measure that holds exactly 100 grains. Here are the results to date, remember, exactly 100 grains of each powder:
Goex 3F 1486 fps
Goex 2F 1308 fps(seems too low, but all good patches)
Olde Eynsford 3F 1543 fps
Olde Eynsford 2F 1526 fps
Swiss 2F 1598 fps
Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F 1522 fps
Swiss 1 1/2F 1413 fps
Alliant Black MZ (90) with 10 gr Goex 2F 1622 fps
Triple 7 2F (90) with 10 gr Goex 2F 1648 fps.

Best groups for four shots at 50 yards were 1.6" for Swiss 2F, 1.7" for OE 1 1/2F, 1.8" for Goex 2F and 2.2" for OE 3F. The Goex 3F went 4.0"

I also shot six black powders in my .50 antelope rifle, 100 grains each, so have that comparison in a 32" barrel. Eleven shots of Goex 3F averaged 1794 fps and 6 shots of Goex 2F averaged 1792 fps. Sometimes you get velocity readings that you can't explain, but they are real.

 

[mooman76]

I used to shoot 2f in a CVA 50 Frontier Carbine with a 24" barrel and it shoot real good. I took two minor competitions with it. Only real way to tell for sure of coarse is to try both and compare the results.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

I use 3f in a lyman GPR in 54 flintlock.

I'd only use 3f in a vent flintlock rifle. Since the flintlock has a more generously flowing ignition / over pressure vent than a percussion.

Just for that reason, I limit myself to 3f in a 45 cal percussion.

I like 3f for two main reasons. One, it burns quicker therefore it's more efficient and you get more shots per pound of powder.

Second, if you are using a flintlock, you can easily use 3f in the pan. no need for 4F.

I would think 3f would be better in shorter barrels.

MY suggestion, before you buy the deer stalker, take a close look at the lyman trade rifle.

 

[Walks with fire]

I was told years ago by someone with good experience in this sport to use 2f in any flintlock rifle. His reason is that there is more air space between the grains which provides a more consistent burn rate and better velocity deviation. I use 2f when my rifle prefers it and most do. Consistent burn rate really has an effect on accuracy in my opinion. Just let your rifle get dirty on your range work and you will soon see how much consistent ignition time affects your accuracy.

There may be a slight velocity advantage to 3f in a short barrel but accuracy trumps velocity.