Powder Measures weigh different

[bighole]

Hello,

I've got 3 different powder measures and each throws a different weight of powder. Should I weigh out say 90 gr and adjust each measure to match it?

Are most of these measures set for corresponding amounts of Goex BP or do the markings represent something else?
Thanks!!

Each measure is set for 90 gr via markings or fixed length measure. Powder used is Goex 2F and was weighed on a beam type scale.
Old adjustable measure w/spout from 80's - 82 gr
New Treso adjustable w/spout - 84 gr
New Treso valve w/screw in fixed measure that screws onto can of Goex
91 gr when piece of cardboard put over end
84 gr when finger is put over end
Also have a fixed screw in measure for 100 gr and it weighs out 96 gr of Goex with a piece of cardboard used on the end and 91 gr with the finger.

 

[renovato]

I don't think I'd worry about it too much. My measures don't throw the same either. I just find an accurate load according to that measure, and make sure to use the same measure for that gun. Easier than trying to recalibrate them.

 

[Snuffy]

What matters-most is sticking to one powder measure for consistent volume loads.

 

[Lone Carabiner]

Is grains both a volume and weight measure?
Could it be that the mearures you are using were calibrated with 3 or 4f powder?

 

[bighole]

I guess my question should have been "what does the markings represent on most powder measures?" Goex 2F, 3F or 4F or some other powder that was a standard of the 1800's?

Here's one of the measures I have. It does 0-120 grains but grains of what?? It certainly isn't Goex 2F. Since it goes to 120 gr you'd think it was 2F for rifle.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=2&subId=188&styleId=914&partNum=MAS-120

The 2 adjustable I have are similar with only 2 gr difference and that leads me to believe there is some standard they are set to but what's the standard?

 

[paulvallandigham]

The markings are not calibrations, but merely reference points. Some work better with 2F; others with 3F. If you have a measure that throws a volume charge within a couple of grains of the actual weight, measured on a balance beam, or computer based scale, USE IT. For hunting loads, a couple of grains one way or another is not going to move that ball on the target enough to notice.

Now, Target shooters weigh their charges before going to the matches, in a quest for total uniformity, and the charges are weighed on good scales, with a NO tolerance variation for the truly serious shooters. They also examine, and weight each bullet, or ball, and sort by weight and appearance, and then wrap them up in something to protect them from being dinged or distorted even by rubbing against another bullet or ball! You rarely find anyone throwing volumetric charges at the target benches these days. I have seen it done, but it is the exception.

Hope that helps you out. You do need a powder scale of some kind to determine what setting to use on that volume measure for your gun. You can throw 5-10 charges at home to determine what the average "Weight" is for any given setting, weighing each charge on your scale to determine what causes the least variation in your technique used to pour the powder into the measure, level it off, and then pour it out of the measure. The larger the caliber of the gun, the less a few grains one way or another is going to affect the POI on target. Use a Chronograph to check SDV so that you are using the most consistent and accurate load in your gun, considering barrel length, caliber, and type of patch and projectile. The lower the sdv, the better groups you will shoot. The Chronograph will obviously also tell you the average velocity of your loads. If you consult some of the reference materials, liky Lyman's loading manual, you can learn how efficient your powdercharge/ball or bullet combination is, relative to their test guns, and how much more, or less, powder you need to add or subtract from the current load to arrive at some onther approx. velocity. When you get an accurate load, with low sdv, take that chronograph out to your target, and shoot a couple of ball over the screens there. That will give you a clear idea about how much of that muzzle velocity has been lost over the range, and consulting the tables will give you an idea of how much energy your bullet or ball still has when it hits an animal. Just don't shoot your chronograph. Its expensive and embarrassing to replace. Please don't ask how I know that! :rotf:

 

[plinker]

The graduations on the powder measure do not pertain to any granulation of powder. They represent the volume that is occupied by water weighing however many grains. For example, my brass powder measure has an inside diameter of .430 inches. When set to 100 grains it has a depth of 2.771 inches. Thus the 100 grain setting has a volume of .4024 cubic inches or 6.594 cubic centimeters. Since 1 cubic centimeter (1 ml) of water weighs 1 gram or 15.43 grains this amount of water should weigh 101.7 grains. Similarly, my plastic measure has a diameter of .500 inches and a depth of 2.049 inches when set at 100 grains. Going through the calculation with these numbers gives a weight of water of 101.7 grains.

Does this volume give a charge that weighs 100 grains? Probably not. A 100 grain charge of Goex 3f weighed 96.7 grains on my electronic scale. The same volume of different powders and different granulations will weigh differently. The last table in the 4th Edition of the Blackpowder Handbook by Sam Fadala gives the weights of 100 grains by volume for several brands and granulations of both real blackpowder and Pyrodex.

We measure by volume because it is easier and faster than weighing with a scale. Unfortunately, we use the same term “grains” for both a volume measurement and a weight measurement. However, in the case of real blackpowder, they are about the same. For Pyrodex and probably some of the other substitutes this is not the case and Hodgden in very careful to tell you to measure Pyrodex by volume not weight.

 

[mbw907]

Hey, Where were you guys when Gilligan was trying to get off the island? :rotf: :rotf: But seriously, great info and something to think about. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Unless I am speaking about my shot and powder dipper, I have never had an adjustable powder measure that would allow me to put water in it- they won't hold water! I will take your word that the scale was based on water. I doubt it, but I will take your word on it. The readings are not precise enough at various settings even using your calculations, and using the same measure. My old Tingle Adjustable measure is most accurate throwing FFg powder. I have a similar measure but made over seas, that works best throwing FFFg powder. Both are brass, made of nominal 1/2 tubing with about the same, but not quite the same, inside diameters. Holding the scales next to each other, they seem to be roughly the same increments. But, they throw different amounts. I have a different measure for each shooting bag, and a different bag for each gun. I made a set measure by drilling out a piece of antler years ago, for a percussion gun, and when I converted it to Flint( What a wonderful day that was! :grin I needed 5 to 10 more grains of powder to hit the same POI. :hmm: So it has been retired. I learned to work from a powder scale to the volume thrower, and then take them to the range, and find what worked. Once I had a working charge, I threw one at home, and poured it on my scale's pan, and weighed it. I rounded the weight up, and then adjusted my volume thrower, and marked the load with a sharp scribe on the scale. I don't set that powder measure on the factory line, but rather to my mark for my load. I now have two marks on the scales, one for a hunting load, and one for target work out to 50 yds. The measure stays with the gun is it marked for, and I have long since forgotten about the markings made by the factory. In fact, I had to take a look at my measure to see where my setting was in relationship to the factory settings when I sat down to write this. KISS is the principle that should guide you. For the guys that are constantly trying different powders, and those substitutes, I don't know how you do it. :shocked2: You can't do any good weighing Pyrodex on a scale, as the company specifically tells you to throw a volumetric charge based on a setting for Black Powder. As to the other subs, who knows. Then you have the trouble of figuring out how much to compact the subs, and they seem to differ Throw in foreigh made black powder, with different numbers, and buring rates, and it has to drive a guy nuts. :youcrazy: I will stick with Goex, thank you. :bow:

 

[Lone Carabiner]

I thought it was evil spirits imparted the 'spin' on the ball? :rotf:

 

[bighole]

All good points. What got me started on this was I got several fixed sized screw in tubes that were supposed to hold 100 gr of bp. 100 gr certainly wouldn't be for pistol and you'd think it would represent rifle powder. When I weighed what would fit in them, I could only get 96 gr in them. When I checked all the other measures I have I found most hold considerablly less than than the markings. I figured the markings must represent some other BP than Goex.

I know it's all relative to what shoots best in my rifle. I was just trying to get a handle on what the markings represent in relation to BP. If I buy a fixed powder measure that says 100 gr on it, it's very likely I won't be able to use it for 100 gr and need to buy something larger and trim it to fit.

 

[wszumera]

Keep in mind that black powder is a bit finicky on how you pour it into a volumetric measurer.

BP cartridge reloaders use a drop tube to get more to fit in their cases.

I've always put my flask at the same point above my measurer and poured in the powder at same rate.

I'd be interested to hear from those that tap theirs to settle the powder.

Clutch

 

[snagg]

Clutch:
I'm a tapper. Not sure how or why I got started doing it, but I do. I fill my measurer up about 3/4's of the way, tap the side a few times and then bring it up to level. It does seem to settle a bit. Kind of a habit I've gotten into.
snagg

 

[shmrck1]

snagg,
I have always tapped myself...why I don't
know...just seemed like that was the way it should be done. Do the same thing when measuring
cooking ingreadients.
snake-eyes :hmm:

 

[bwhoffman]

My name is Brett and I'm a tapper :rotf:

seriously thou..
different grades of powder(3f, 2f ect) have different sized granuals, added the fact that you probly have measures of different diameters.
Iguess what I'm saying is 3 measures, the same amount of powder into each, all things NOT being equal. Did that make any sense?

Personally,I have base lined one measure, and used that to "calibrate" my other measures and my non adjustables.

FWIW,
Brett

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bighole: Now that you have told me what you were trying to use, I have to laugh. When I was starting out, I wanted to find a way to carry a much smaller amount of powder in the field than I carried in that powder horn I bought. So, I bought one of those Italian made flasks, with the screw in tubes. I had one for 20 grains, for my revolver, and I bought another for 50 to use with my .45 cal. rifle. I found out the same thing you did.

Then I began to experiment, changing how I loaded that " tube measure" from the flask. First I began shaking it up and down to compress the load. The more I compressed the powder in that tube, the heavier the powder charge got. I even got fairly close to that "50 grain" marking, but I had to shake it so much it wore my wrist out! I also didn't like making such quick short violent movements in the hunting fields or woods. So, I retired the flask to carrying corn meal for a filler to use in my rifle. Instead, I modified some plastic tubes I had from some fine cigars I was smoking back in those days, to use to carry individually measured and weighed powder charges, in my pocket or bag, for hunting. A ball block, with 5 pre-lubed PRB in it carried all the ball I needed for a hunt. I may make one that only carries 3 pretty soon, as I have never needed all of them on any deer hunt, and whats the point of carrying even that little extra weight around your neck all day? I have that 50 grain tube measure if you want it. Send me your address and its yours.

 

[bighole]

I appreciate the offer but I'm fine on the measures. I fit one of the tubes to hold 85 gr weighed on a acale by the way I fill it and it worked out great. One of my buddies even had his chrono out today so I got to see where it was at without me having to bring mine out and getting it set up.

 

[reddogge]

I've been shooting these things for a long time now (1960's)and I've found black powder isn't as touchy as smokeless powder. Work up your load by VOLUME for accuracy and then set your measure for that VOLUME and pour. It doesn't matter whether you tap or not tap as long as you do the same thing everytime since you aren't measuring by WEIGHT like smokeless. Don't get stuck in the trap that you need each charge to be exactly alike as the charges can be off a tad and still not affect accuracy with BP.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Reddogge: You are correct to a point: For general applications and shooting a PRB off-hand, for hunting, measuring a charge by volume and being close is not going to matter much. However, for close target work, particularly at long ranges, you will need to weigh each charge if you want to compete with the big boys. If you can visit a major shoot, just walk down to the Slug Gun range and talk to those shooters. Then watch them load those guns. Whatever you thought you know about shooting Black Powder begins all over again, there. :grin:

 

[TN.Frank]

Is grains both a volume and weight measure?
Could it be that the mearures you are using were calibrated with 3 or 4f powder?

NO,NO,and NO. We went over this on a Cowboy action shooting forum a few years back. Some guy even went so far as to say there was a "grains volume" and a "grains weight" and that they weren't the same. I finally got an e-mail from the people at Pyrodex that set him straight on the matter. The only reason we use a measure(or meter if you like) instead of a scale to weight out out powder in the field is because it much more handy. A powder measure, in theory, should thrown the same weight powder charge, in grains, that it says it should on the little scale on the measure. A lack and a lass, because of mass production, ect. most are not even close. Grains is a unit of weight, not of volume BUT a given volume can be set up to throw the same weight, in grains, of powder each and every time, or at least close enough to use in a black powder firearm. :v