Powder Quality?

[Eric M]

Is there a difference in quality between Goex or Swiss brands. For example I was told that 60 grains of 2F Swiss is just as good as using 80 grains of 2F Goex. I have never used Swiss, only Goex. Just wanted to know what everyones thoughts are.

 

[BrownBear]

I've always heard that about Swiss, but never had a chance to buy any and try it. It's quite a bit more expensive from all the sources I've seen, but I don't know if the "savings" from using less would weigh out against the lower cost of Goex. I do know for sure that guys who use it love it!

 

[Semisane]

I've never tried Swiss. But most people who use it report it's more powerful than GOEX and many say it's cleaner burning. It's also a little more expensive pound for pound, but it may be a wash shot for shot if you're using less powder.

That being said, I use GOEX because it's made in the USA and I'd hate to see the only black power made here become unavailable because of lack of sales. Anyway, GOEX does everything I need done.

 

[paulvallandigham]

A few years ago, my brother did a comparison between 3Fg Goex, and the equivalent sized Swiss powder( the numbering system is backwards from the American system). He used his .40 caliber target gun.

He found that an Equal Volume of Swiss powder produced several hundred more FPS in velocity than the same volume of Goex powder. SDV was lower for the Swiss, indicating it was burning more completely in his barrel than Goex was.

He then used an OP wad( Walter's Vegetable Fiber Wad) over both powder charges, and found that the Swiss powder, altho still producing more velocity than the Goex, was now less than 100 fps more than Goex produced. The goex powder was now burning More completely in his barrel. SDV was very close for the two powders.

At the time, he was buying Goex for about $12.00 per pound at a case lot price. Swiss was running over $20.00 per pound. Both cost more now.

He did some computations on his computer, and figured out that by using the OP wad, and adding a bit more powder, he could achieve the same MV, and get a SDV of velocity that was so close to what he got from the Swiss powder, that the cost savings of using Goex outweighed using Swiss powder except for important match shooting, where competitors use every possible "advantage"[ perceived or real] to win a match. Since he already had the Swiss powder he bought, he has kept it to use in those big shooting matches, ONLY.

IMHO, unless you are a target match competitor, traveling to the big shoots around the country, you probably are not going to be able to justify the higher cost of the Swiss powder, or notice any significant difference over using Goex powder.

There are a couple of websites that explain how Swiss powder is made, and compare it to Goex powder.

Basically, the carbon used in Swiss powder is more pure( fewer impurities) because they use charcoal made from Alder harvested in Easter Europe. The granule size is also different- small, and based on the metric system, than Goex powder is. And, because the Swiss use the metric system, there is a slight larger amount of Potassium Nitrate used in their powder than is used in Goex. Since PN is the active ingredient in Black Powder, and since BP burns from the outside in, the slightly small granule Swiss powder gives you more Granules per volume than a similar volume of Goex. That is how the Higher MV, and lower SDV in velocity is achieve.

The lesser amount of impurities in the carbon used in Swiss powder is simply an added plus, leaving the residue finer when Swiss powder is used, in your barrel, while allowing more "soot" to be expelled out the muzzle.

Is there an advantage to using Swiss powder over Goex? Yes.

Is the advantage worth the additional cost? Only you can answer that one. :hatsoff:

 

[Eric M]

That is great information, as you stated I do not shoot competatively, just hunting. Correct me if I am wrong, from what you said about the granule size being smaller for swiss could you argue that you could use 3f Goex and maybe get somewhat same results based on its smaller granule size and its burn rate?

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you re-read my post, the Test my brother did used 3Fg Goex.

Here is a site on Swiss powder.
http://www.laflinandrand.com/madmonk/Swiss_Booklet.pdf

Here is the site comparing the two:

http://blackpowder.ch/powder/shooting-powder

 

[Robert Egler]

I have both Swiss and Goex, and I have never done a scientific evaluation between the two, but from just my user's viewpoint hunting (and shooting offhand at the range for practice) I cannot tell any difference between them.

I'm not saying there is no difference, one may be slightly faster burning or less fouling, I'm just saying that to me in practical situations I couldn't tell you which one I was using without looking at the can.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Since you are just using it for hunting, don't sweat it. Buy what is available in your area and/or the best price.
When I was a serious (meaning addicted) 'X' hunting competitior, I went so far as to use only powder from the same lots of manufacter. When a can got down to just a couple ounces left I put into a can marked 'for hunting only'. That resulted in powder that was from different manufacturers and a mix of 2Fg and 3Fg. It went in my horn. Of course, I didn't tell the deer and they never noticed the difference. :wink:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Powder Quality?

To get a claimed 25% better result from Swiss vs. Goex it has to be more than a quality issue. I know Goex adds graphite (the little "g" at the end of the grain size: i.e. FFg) to aid processing. Don't know if the Swiss powder has this. But that much claimed improvement has to be a formulation difference - not just quality of components or processing.

 

[Ken Rummer]

I looked into the Swiss/Goex question. I was suprised to find that Goex has finer particles than Swiss for any given grade.

Swiss 2Fg grain size is 1.36 to .67 mm
Goex 2Fg grain size is 1.19 to .60 mm
So Goex has smaller grains in both ends of the range. 3Fg shows a larger fraction of smaller grains than the 2Fg.

Since Goex is finer and Swiss is hotter I think the increased energy of the Swiss powder is a result of some property other than grain size.
Powder chemistry?

Load data provided by Swiss is sparse. I found one reference on this forum when I searched on "Swiss" and read through a ton of posts. It looked like it came from Swiss and listed a table comparing and USA grain sizes. This was the source of the size data above.


It also listed some loads but no pressure or velocity data.

I bought 5# of Swiss, both 2F & 3F, and will give it a try and will reduce the load of Swiss to 90% of the published Goex load data a recommended by many people on this forum.

 

[Ken Rummer]

I just reread the entire post and the document I was talking about is referenced above by paul. It is the link by the madmonk.

Great reading.