preignition launch

[taylorh]

Has anyone here ever had a pre-ignition while ramming powder or shot down the shoot? If you have had this happen to yourself, or if you have witnessed such an event, what was the outcome and what was the cause? Maybe we could all learn something.
Taylor in Texas

 

[spotlink]

This is my biggest fear. Its an ever present boogie man haunting me everytime I shoot. I pace myself slowly so this does not happen.

 

Texan,
Usually the reason for a "pre-ignition" as you describe is due to hot embers remaining after the last shot was fired and fresh poowder being poured down the barrel. This is the reason that it is stated that "no one will blow down a barrel after a shot is fired". I know of one instance at Freindship that happened on the line using a range rod with a ball handle. Luckily the shooter only got a severly bruised hand but the rod did some damage to the roof. It could have been much worse if the shooter had been using a field rod with no handle or been standing over the muzzle. :hmm:
Mark

 

[paulvallandigham]

Long ago, when I didn't know better, I used to blow down the barrel to put out the embers before reloading, just because everyone else at my club did it that way. Then I got smart.

I now- and have for more than 25 years- run a cleaning patch down the barrel after every shot wetted with spit. This softens the crud, removes some of it, and absolute puts out all embers. I always watch my touch hole, or nipples to see if smoke is coming out, so I know the path is clear for the next shot, and by judging the density of any smoke that does come out, I know if its just smoke from the prior shot that remains in the barrel, or " new " smoke from actual burning embers. My experience is that when shooting a proper load, with the correct ball and patch combination, or when using a filler to seal the gases behind the ball, that I get far better and more complete burning of the powder, and almost never have a burning ember in the barrel. However, even though this is a rare event, I still use the damp cleaning patch down the barrel to put out the embers. It does require me to run the ramrod down between shots, but I am not in a hurry when I shoot BP, and there is no excuse for risking your own and someone else's safety by cutting corners.

 

[john12865]

Has anyone here ever had a pre-ignition while ramming powder or shot down the shoot? If you have had this happen to yourself, or if you have witnessed such an event, what was the outcome and what was the cause? Maybe we could all learn something.
Taylor in Texas

I run a spit patch between shots. The worst mishap I've had with a muzzle loader was squirrel hunting. Shot one and then another came in barking at me about 30 feet above me,while I was reloading from the first shot. I got him but my ram rod was in small pieces. :rotf:

 

[roundball]

Has anyone here ever had a pre-ignition while ramming powder or shot down the shoot? If you have had this happen to yourself, or if you have witnessed such an event, what was the outcome and what was the cause? Maybe we could all learn something.
Taylor in Texas

Putting aside the old saying that "anything is possible"...I personally don't believe it's a very high likelihood of happening.

And I'm not suggesting to relax safety practices...I religiously follow strict safety basics like not getting my head over the muzzle under any circumstances at the range or hunting.
(during or after cleaning it in bucket of water is a completely different matter)

But I have intentionally tried to have such an ignition at the range, summer before last....took 50 premeasured charges of 50grns Goex 3F in 35mm film canisters...got everything laid out and proceeded to fire 50 shots as fast as I could humanly do it, no wiping between shots (and was certain to keep my face well back from the muzzle).

Shoot;
Quickly lean rifle against bench;
Pour charge down bore so fast the barrel smoke blows out the vent;
Seat patch & ball;
Prime & shoot;
Repeat;
Repeat;
etc.

Barrel got so hot towards the end I literally couldn't hold it with my bare hands, had to use a towel like a pot holder...every shot was just as normal as could be...not saying it is impossible for it to happen, I just don't personally believe there's much probability.

I've heard of the rare occasion when such a thing was purported to have happened but I always wonder if there was really another cause, a mistake, etc, that didn't get noticed...or...didn't get reported out of embarrassment...dunno

 

[Slamfire]

I run a spit patch between shots. The worst mishap I've had with a muzzle loader was squirrel hunting. Shot one and then another came in barking at me about 30 feet above me,while I was reloading from the first shot. I got him but my ram rod was in small pieces. :rotf:

That points out the need for speed loadin' practice. I shudder to think what damage a barkin' squirrel could do to a feller that was too slow. :rotf:

 

[silverfox]

You talking about a cookoff. Roundball glad you tried it and nothing happened. The only time I have seen or heard of this is in the NSSA and the use of Civil War type weapons. Happened once at a shoot I was at and shooter got a burned hand and lost ramrod. Never found out the reason but expect it was some cleaning patch left over between relays as it would have been his second shot. Sure sounded funny and got everybodys attention more like a rocket going off than a shot. No lasting damage.
Haven't heard of this with a regular rifle .
Fox :hatsoff:

 

[Smokey in Oz]

I've been told that after a shot I should leave the hammer down with the old cap still fitted. The theory is to prevent oxygen from entering via the nipple which might assist with smouldering embers. Only remove the used cap after re-loading, immediately before fitting a new cap for firing.
What are peoples thoughts on this theory? :hmm:
Smokey.

 

My caps blow up and I rarely have a cap left on the nipple after firing. I recommend swabbing between shots or there is another method I use to make sure all embers are completely dead before throwing another load down. Point being, why take a chance on losing a hand. We use powder measures for that very same chance ember being alive. Not many of us will load from the powder horn directly into the muzzle. Fellas that load shot after shot without any precautions are asking for trouble IMHO.

 

[roundball]

I've been told that after a shot I should leave the hammer down with the old cap still fitted. The theory is to prevent oxygen from entering via the nipple which might assist with smouldering embers. Only remove the used cap after re-loading, immediately before fitting a new cap for firing.
What are peoples thoughts on this theory? :hmm:
Smokey.

I don't happen to do that...I go to half cock right after a shot with both caplocks and flintlocks....and I load them both at half cock...with a caplock in particular I think the rush of air from seating a ball is a good thing to force some fines into the nipple fire channel.

The notion of blocking the air supply probably has it's roots in the practice of firing cannons, where the vent is sealed while loading with that safety principle in mind...however, it's my understanding that the possibility of 'burning embers' down in a cannon is a real possibility due to the very coarse granulations of cannon powder used vs. the finer, cleaner burning 3F/2F granulations we use.

Ultimately we all need to do what we're most comfortable with...and for me that's always loading at half cock, to use the air rush to force powder into the vent, or into the nipple fire channel.

 

[taylorh]

Hey Roundball,
If your so comfortable with the idea of loading as fast as possible, no swabbing or blowing down the tube, or anything else between shots to ensure that there isn't a spark down there, then why arn't you comfortable loading from a horn with a flameproof valve? After all there doesn't seem to be any real danger... This isn't a challenge, just an observation. Most of us seem fairly comfortable loading as fast as possible in competition, but wouldn't think of using a flameproof valve on a horn for fear of blowing our hands off. Verses what? Shooting our hands off with a ball or ramrod in the event of a preignition that you have demonstrated is next to impossible to acheive? Furthermore I think that the use of pyrodex would further reduce the chance of preignition due to the higher ignition temperatures required by most substitutes. What do you all think? Are we being a bit too cautious?
Taylor in Texas
PS I'm not personally challanging your opinions (all readers of this post), just provoking a little discussion on an inconsistancy that I've been observing since I joined the forum.

 

[roundball]

You haven't observed this inconsistency from me...I don't load from a horn at all.

 

[Slake]

I've heard of it happening once at my club but it happend as soon as the kid poured the powder down the barrel, he got a woosh and everyone around him was a wee bit startled but no injuries. those kids now swab between shots, and I do too.
I believe swabbin between shots eliminates that from happening and it keeps your gun cleaner for longer shooting pleasure

 

[roundball]

".....I've heard of it happening once at my club....."

Slake, first let me clarify that I'm not singling you out, only referenbcing the honest remark about having heard of it occuring at your club, to provide some feedback.

There was quite a lengthy discussion about this phenomenon a year or so ago here on the Forum with many, many participants from all over the world really...and the single most frustrating aspect of it is always the same: have never yet had anyone come forward and identify themselves as having actually had it happen to them...it's always, always, always a case of I heard, or someone said, or someone told me, etc, etc...so that when specific questions are asked about the incident, precise answers can't be given because it's always 3rd, 4th, 5th (or 100th) hand information, etc... :shocked2:

 

[Slake]

I know exactly what you mean, in this case I know the kid that it happened to and also know the three kids that were with him at the time. They are teenagers and I questioned them thoroghly because I had the feeling they were doing something they shouldn't have been doing. One of the kids fathers heard the woosh but didn't see it right close
The kid had seventy grains of Pyrodex RS ignite on him right after he poured the powder into the barrel. It scared him pretty good, ya wanna talk to someone that believes in swabbing between shots it's that kid

 

[taylorh]

Roundball, I didn't accuse you or anyone of loading from the horn. The inconsistancy is that my casual observation of forum members is that they are all consistantly against using horns with 'flameproof' valves because of the possibility of a preignition occuring which might blow past their 'flalmeproof' valves (or into their unvalved horns for that matter) and turn their powderhorn into a grenade. But you have demonstrated that preignition is all but a myth. I believe that your experiment is valid. Furthermore, the use of pyrodex should also reduce a persons risk of preignition even more than black powder since it has a higher ignition temperature. What do you all think? I'm not above being criticized on issues of safety. I just wonder if were not all being a little too cautious. Personally, without an in barrel camera to see whats going on in there, I doubt we could put this question to rest. But I would like to hear a real first person account of a preignition, and have the chance to ask them some question about the incident.
Taylor in Texas

 

[roundball]

But you have demonstrated that preignition is all but a myth. I believe that your experiment is valid.

And that's a good way of putting it..."all but a myth"...because we need to be fair and realize that all I can really say is that on that particular day, given all those particular conditions of the moment, I was not able to force an unscheduled ignition.
:thumbsup:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

This is kinda like the discussion on the pistol forum regarding chain fires in revolver. It's almost impossible to reproduce in the laboratory but it does happen, even to folks who follow proper procedure, and much more often to those who don't. I've never had a chainfire myself but I'd still never put my hand in front of the cylinder.
I've often loaded a rifle or shotgun directly from a self-measuring flask and will continue to do so because it involves less stuff to fumble with but I do understand that there is a risk, however small. :grin:

 

[longfowler]

I agree, we all assume some risk when playing with firearms. I personaly pour from the horn because I'm comforable with it and it saves time. but I would never critisize someone else for being cautious. I also don't wear a helmet on my motorcycle, but plenty of guys do and there's nothing wrong with that.If you keep your wits about you and pay attention to safety details you will most likely survive most mishaps!