Premade shot cups/cartridges, how to.

[Brokennock]

Okay, I've been thinking about posting this for quite some time. And, with the new forum software allowing us to basically take and post pictures directly, now seems a good time. But, I'm not sure if this belongs here in "Smoothbore" or in the "Hunting" section, or maybe in Craftsman," anyway, I'm sure it will get moved to the appropriate place,,,,, trash maybe?

We will be using paper from brown paper shopping bags, thin cotton string (like kite string), masking tape (optional), wood templates quickly made of craft maple once dimensions are determined. I am making these for a 20 gauge smoothbore. I have 2 templates for the shot cups, one for 1oz loads and 1 for 1 1/4oz loads, so your sizes may vary but process is the same.

Here goes,

So here you see the basic components. I've made maple templates of craft maple from Lowes. There was a lot of trial and error in getting the correct dimensions to wind up with 2 layers of paper around the shot, 1 layer of paper for the twisted end, and just enough paper past the shot to fold it closed like a coin roll.

These should show the dimensions for the 1oz shot load template. The last one is a crucial measurement as it determines the volume of the shotcup.

You probably noticed 2 dowels in the 1st photo. The big one is the more necessary. It is the mandrel the shot up will be formed around. For those with a lathe, just turn down a radwood dowel to a diameter that will just barely enter the bore with 2 wraps of the paper around it. I don't have a lathe so needed to find a material I could work with (doesn't have to be wood) and was close to the size I need already. Lucked out when I found these

At Hobby Lobby for $2.99

To be continued....

 

[Rich]

Thanks! A video would be really neat to see exactly how your rolling them. Now have to go get wood.

 

[Brokennock]

To keep moving....
The smaller dowel isn't completely necessary but I use it to pre roll and pre stress the paper which seems to result in less tearing of the paper. You may be able to see a thin slit down into it lengthwise with a model makers saw.
Used thusly

Edge of paper in saw cut, wrap paper around dowel in both directions.
repeat with this edge in thin dowel.

Note: I am having to alter how I lay this out as I go as some pictures are "too big for the server" or something to that effect.

Next up, forming the cup...

 

[Brokennock]

As you see in the 1st picture in the 1st post, I have precut several papers using my template. The big square template is used to reduce the paper bags to easier to store pieces that are closer to the finished dimensions.
I would recommend cutting some pieces of string for tying the twisted ends closed in advance, and, starting an overhand knot on each piece before forming your cup.

Notice we are rolling this shorter "tab" on our blank will be to the inside of the roll/tube and the section that will only reach around the dowel once is toward the end of the mandrel.

So we now have a short section of tube double thick around the mandrel and the longer end is about to create a single wrap. We want to slide this down the mandrel so the double thick portion is just to the end of the mandrel and the single thickness overhangs.

Wrap it closed and

Twist it shut.
Tip: counter intuitively, twist away from the open edge of the paper. You can see the edge of the paper here facing left, as the paper was wrapped clockwise as seen in the previous picture, twist counter clockwise, I seem to find continuing the twist clockwise caused the paper to slide and try to open. But do what works for you.
Now, take one of your precut pieces of thread, that hopefully you started an overhand knot on, and drop that loop created by the started knot around the twisted end and pull it tight around the twist


Try to tie this as close to the shoulder/body of the cup as possible.
Turn it so the overhand knot is opposite from you
And tie a square knot opposite the overhand knot. Trim your ends based on desired use (more on this when we're done)
Here we are....
Next up, charging and finishing......

 

[Brokennock]

Fill your cup, I'm using 1oz #5 shot, the cup shouldn't be full to the edge

You need to have just enough to fold...the edges closed like a coin wrapper

You now have some options or decisions to make. As these are my 1oz squirrel and small game loads, I'm going to keep these closed for storage and transport with a small piece of tape.....


You could potentially use wax or any number of things to hold this closed. A lot can depend on the paper used, you may not need anything to hold this closed, and intended use.


A tin of squirrel medicine.

Next, use and options. No more pictures

 

[Brokennock]

For using these 1oz squirrel loads, they are placed folded end against my lubed felt wads. Which sit atop 2 thin cards, which sit over 65 grains of 3f powder. The card/wad/shotcup package is built at the muzzle, after pouring powder, I push the package into the bore just to the shoulder of the cup and the twist closure, then tear or cut off the twist, top the whole mess off with an overshot card or two, and maybe, a SkyChief lubed cushion wad.
Thusly I trim the string ends fairly short and try to keep the folded closure flat, to sit flat against the flat felt wads.
When making the 1 1/4oz cartridges for turkey hunting, I leave the strings longer and try to keep my folded closure to a minimum. Why? I load the twisted end 1st, leaving it tied closed. It nestles into a small wad of shredded and lubed sisal twine (more available than tow) the flaps of the fold are cut off at the muzzle.

This was more involved than expected, I address anything I missed tomorrow.

 

[jrmflintlock]

The skychief load works for me, but I think this would be an even tighter pattern due to the addition of the cup! Thanks Brokennock!

 

[Brokennock]

So I now see a few misspellings and unfinished thoughts. The dowels for the mandrel luckily were an odd size in that they are not a standard hardware store or home improvement store diameter but are very close to bore diameter, close enough to be brought down to size with some sandpaper and patience.
Obviously one could skip the stepped shape and just use a rectangle of the correct length. But, the double thickness (or more) of paper doesn't want to twist up as nicely and tends to want to tear when enough torque is put to it to get the twist tight and secure, harder to tie too.

If someone can figure out how to make these hold together just a little longer after leaving the muzzle, and drop away, without slugging, I'd love to hear how. One could get some amazing turkey hunting patterns then. Everything I've tried to effect this results in great patterns when/if the shot leaves the cup, but, I can't get it to leave the cup reliably enough. All too often the whole package hits the patterning board together.

 

[Black Hand]

So I now see a few misspellings and unfinished thoughts. The dowels for the mandrel luckily were an odd size in that they are not a standard hardware store or home improvement store diameter but are very close to bore diameter, close enough to be brought down to size with some sandpaper and patience.
Obviously one could skip the stepped shape and just use a rectangle of the correct length. But, the double thickness (or more) of paper doesn't want to twist up as nicely and tends to want to tear when enough torque is put to it to get the twist tight and secure, harder to tie too.

If someone can figure out how to make these hold together just a little longer after leaving the muzzle, and drop away, without slugging, I'd love to hear how. One could get some amazing turkey hunting patterns then. Everything I've tried to effect this results in great patterns when/if the shot leaves the cup, but, I can't get it to leave the cup reliably enough. All too often the whole package hits the patterning board together.

I make my shot loads from brown paper rectangles (just at 2 complete wraps around the brass tubing mandrel - I can get 3-4 loads from each piece of paper), twist & tie the ends (linen thread) like a Tootsie Roll and trim the tails fairly short. Lube the entire load with deer tallow. I load my powder, heavier over-powder card (posterboard), the pre-made load (I start the load and when nearly flush with the muzzle, cut off the forward-facing tail) and a light over-shot card (mailing envelope).

 

[ThumperJones]

Thanks very much for the tutorial Brokennock. Very good info and very well done. This will be a big help to me when I start dialing in my FDC here soon.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

The skychief load works for me, but I think this would be an even tighter pattern due to the addition of the cup! Thanks Brokennock!

JRM,
Where can I find the recipe for this often mentioned Skychief load?

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

Doesn't look like I can buy #5 shot in bulk locally.
Anybody got an online source for lead or bismuth?

The Sicilian

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's robust twine! I just use carpet thread.

 

[Stumpkiller]

JRM,
Where can I find the recipe for this often mentioned Skychief load?

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/skychief-load-recipe.113195/#post-1542738

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/skychief-load-recipe.113195/#post-1542738

Got it !!
Thanks

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

So I now see a few misspellings and unfinished thoughts. The dowels for the mandrel luckily were an odd size in that they are not a standard hardware store or home improvement store diameter but are very close to bore diameter, close enough to be brought down to size with some sandpaper and patience.
Obviously one could skip the stepped shape and just use a rectangle of the correct length. But, the double thickness (or more) of paper doesn't want to twist up as nicely and tends to want to tear when enough torque is put to it to get the twist tight and secure, harder to tie too.

If someone can figure out how to make these hold together just a little longer after leaving the muzzle, and drop away, without slugging, I'd love to hear how. One could get some amazing turkey hunting patterns then. Everything I've tried to effect this results in great patterns when/if the shot leaves the cup, but, I can't get it to leave the cup reliably enough. All too often the whole package hits the patterning board together.

Nock,
Thanks for all the detailed info !!
That kind of tutorial is exactly what people who are Noobs (like myself) need to see (visuals are key in some cases) in order to completely understand, much appreciated!!

The Sicilian

 

[Brokennock]

You're welcome.

 

[Reactor]

"If someone can figure out how to make these hold together just a little longer after leaving the muzzle, and drop away, without slugging, I'd love to hear how. "

Try using a dilute paste of starch and water. Apply it evenly to the paper before you roll it. Let the tube dry and it should hold together. Flour was a common buffer before the modern plastic shot buffer, so it should be safe for your barrel.

 

[Black Hand]

"If someone can figure out how to make these hold together just a little longer after leaving the muzzle, and drop away, without slugging, I'd love to hear how. "

Try using a dilute paste of starch and water. Apply it evenly to the paper before you roll it. Let the tube dry and it should hold together. Flour was a common buffer before the modern plastic shot buffer, so it should be safe for your barrel.

With the method I described, I get no slugging...

 

[Badgerfarm]

This is an awesome idea.