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Priming the pan

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gcebulka

40 Cal.
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
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Hello All,
I'm just getting started with flintlock shooting and I have a question about priming the pan. What I am using is a .50 TC Renegade, 75gr 3f load and priming with 4f. My question is this.
Looking down into the pan.
Should I place my priming charge next to flash hole, in the center of pan or to the right of the pan, away from the flash hole?

Thanks in advance,
George
 
A small prime to the outside of the pan usually works best. The least amout of prime you can use and still get good ignition.
 
FFFg powder works just fine for priming your lock. There is a small difference is ignition speed, but we are talking millionths of a second, and you will neither hear or see the difference. Obviously, you won't be able to move the sight off the target in that short amount of time, either.
 
GeorgeC said:
Hello All,
I'm just getting started with flintlock shooting and I have a question about priming the pan. What I am using is a .50 TC Renegade, 75gr 3f load and priming with 4f. My question is this.
Looking down into the pan.
Should I place my priming charge next to flash hole, in the center of pan or to the right of the pan, away from the flash hole?

Thanks in advance,
George
I use the same TC flint locks, and have found I get consistent, fast ignition using one of the various pan primers which have a 3grn plunger/dispenser tip on them.

Not only do they meter out precisely the same amount of 4F each time, it's an ideal amount in the medium sized TC pans so they don't get overfilled and cover the vent hole.

Then after closing the frizzen, I rock the prime away from the vent hole in the belief that ignition speed is improved by the flare coming off the side or slope of the powder towards the vent.

No science on my part, just my personal belief...my ignition is excellent each and every time so you know the old saying...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
roundball said:
I use the same TC flint locks, and have found I get consistent, fast ignition using one of the various pan primers which have a 3grn plunger/dispenser tip on them.

Not only do they meter out precisely the same amount of 4F each time, it's an ideal amount in the medium sized TC pans so they don't get overfilled and cover the vent hole.

Then after closing the frizzen, I rock the prime away from the vent hole in the belief that ignition speed is improved by the flare coming off the side or slope of the powder towards the vent.

No science on my part, just my personal belief...my ignition is excellent each and every time so you know the old saying...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thanks for the reply, I've been charging next to the flash hole and getting some rather inconsistant ignition results. I do use a pan charger, so the amount of powder in the pan is pretty consistant. But, my flash to boom time is all over the place. I get everything from a pfftbang to a pfft....."is thing thing going to go off"....bang... :( I'll give your method a try and see what happens...:)
 
GeorgeC said:
Thanks for the reply, I've been charging next to the flash hole and getting some rather inconsistant ignition results.
1) Do you have TC's new improved vent liner installed? If not, I strongly recommend you get some...($4-5 bucks a pair in a blisterpac)...the ignition speed seems instantaneous.

2) Is your 75grn charge of 3F, real black powder? (ie: Goex, Swiss, etc)
 
roundball said:
GeorgeC said:
Thanks for the reply, I've been charging next to the flash hole and getting some rather inconsistant ignition results.
1) Do you have TC's new improved vent liner installed? If not, I strongly recommend you get some...($4-5 bucks a pair in a blisterpac)...the ignition speed seems instantaneous.

Yup, I'm using the improved vent liner. Although, I belive that the one I have came from RMC Sports in Mingoville, PA.

2) Is your 75grn charge of 3F, real black powder? (ie: Goex, Swiss, etc)

Yes, I'm using 75gr, 3f Goex for the charge and 4f Goex for the prime. Powder is fresh. And I have made sure that the vent hole is clean/clear.
 
Rebel said:
A small prime to the outside of the pan usually works best. The least amout of prime you can use and still get good ignition.

I don't know where or when this idea started. I have been actively involved in muzzleloading shooting since 1962. I have always filled my pan to the bottom of the vent hole. Just the same as everyone else did that I shot with for years and years. Somewhere along the line someone got the idea that you get better ignition with just a couple of grains in the pan and piled at the far side of the pan away from the vent hole.

Why did a full pan work for eons and then all of a sudden it didn't. I personally think that if a full pan of priming powder does not provide the best possible ignition in your muzzleloader then there is something wrong with the vent hole, either size or location.

Randy Hedden
 
While I've been shooting muzzleloaders for around 22 years (makes me a baby on this board... ), I've been shooting a flintlock now for maybe 5 years? So, I'm still rather new to it.

However, like Harddog, I don't know where it came from, and I learned it not only from reading, but also from trial and error. When shooting my .50 cal. Tennessee rifle, I prime with 4F, and I use one of those pan primers...I wind up with about half a pan full (my main charge is 2F). My ignition is INSTANTANEOUS. For my .62 cal. smoothbore, I'm using 3F as the main charge, and 3F as the pan priming as well...from the same horn. Once again, I'm going about half, to 3/4 full, and my ignition is INSTANTANEOUS.

However, we could all just be second guessing something which is fairly simple. Yes, I don't fill my pan, and yes, I like to make sure my priming powder is on the opposite side of the hole, but at the same time, I ALSO make sure that my bore (especially breech area) is dry prior to shooting, I make sure my touch hole is clean and dry, I make sure my pan is clean and dry, and I make sure that I have a decent flint, along with a clean, dry frizzen....

So, all of that stuff may account for my exceptional ignition. Regardless, this system I'm working with right now works pretty well, so I may as well stick to it.... :grin:
 
Harddog said:
I don't know where or when this idea started. I have been actively involved in muzzleloading shooting since 1962. I have always filled my pan to the bottom of the vent hole. Just the same as everyone else did that I shot with for years and years. Somewhere along the line someone got the idea that you get better ignition with just a couple of grains in the pan and piled at the far side of the pan away from the vent hole.

Why did a full pan work for eons and then all of a sudden it didn't. I personally think that if a full pan of priming powder does not provide the best possible ignition in your muzzleloader then there is something wrong with the vent hole, either size or location.

Randy Hedden

The "idea" comes from those who have gone before us and is quite simple. When the prime is banked up against the barrel the fire will have to burn its way through to the main charge like a fuse, but if the prime is banked to the outside of the pan (away from the barrel), and the flash hole clear, the flash will have a free path to the charge instantly.

Toomuch
.........
Shoot Flint
 
George,
My experience has been to let your gun tell you what works and go with that. Then try to do the same everytime.
I've shot some guns where how full the pan was seemed to mater and some that it made no difference.
Some of the varibles that effect ignition speed are barrel wall thickness, vent hole size, coned or not and where the ventliner is in relationship to the top of the pan. What works for my gun will probably not work for your gun or it may make no difference at all.
 
[/quote]

The "idea" comes from those who have gone before us and is quite simple. When the prime is banked up against the barrel the fire will have to burn its way through to the main charge like a fuse, but if the prime is banked to the outside of the pan (away from the barrel), and the flash hole clear, the flash will have a free path to the charge instantly.

Toomuch
.........
Shoot Flint
[/quote]

Toomuch,

I stated that I have been actively shooting muzzleloaders since 1962. I have actually been shooting muzzleloaders since the early to mid 1950's because where I lived, muzleloaders never went out of style. My grandfather, and Father shot muzzleloaders when I was just a tyke. .

I don't think that there are a whole lot of muzzleloader shooters alive who could have "come before me". Yeah, I know a few, but the great interest in modern muzzleloading actually started during our own bi-centenial in 1976. Filling the pan to the bottom of the touch does not create a fuse effect that has to be burned through to get ignition. Only if you have powder in the touch hole will you get the fuse effect.

I have also been building muzzleloaders since 1962 and other shooters always remark about how fast my ignition is.

You probably put only a few grains in the pan bancked away from the touch hole because that is how you were taught to do it. Someone else mentioned that he had been shooting flintlocks for 22 years and he uses a few grains banked away from the touch hole. 22 to 25 years ago is when this supposed wisdom came about.

You have to think about what actually makes the main charge ignite and also how the powder in the pan burns. There are two thoughts about what makes the main charge ignite. One says that a spark of burning priming powder has to go through the touch hole and ignite the powder. Another tought is that the sheer heat of the burning priming powder ighites the main charge. If you have ever seen black powder ignite in slow motion, a single spark from the flint and frizzen hits the powder and ignites one granule of powder. this burning granule ighites each granule that it is touching and so forth. In other words a chain reaction. Slow motion pictures of priming powder in a pan igniting shows that a sheet of granules on the top of the priming ignites all the way across the top of the powder as well as going down into the powder.

If you fill your pan JUST TO THE BOTTOM of the flash hole the flaming sheet of powder reaches the vent hole faster than if you only have two or three grains in the bottom of the pan and stacked away from the vent hole. Think about it!

Randy Hedden
 
When I build up a rock lock, I always try to place the vent hole where it splits the top of pan. This way I can just dump some powder in the pan without worrying about how much.
 
I am one of the SOBs who says to bank the prime away from the touch hole. See my article.[url] www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm.[/url]

Leaving air away from the touch hole give extra oxygen to draw the flame of the burning priming powder SIDEWAYS, towards the touch hole, and through it into the main charge. Always pick your main charge with a vent pick when loading( YOu can put a pick or feather in the touch hole while loading the powder patch and ball, or pick a hole in the powder charge after you have seated the ball, as i do. It achieves the same result.) YOu want the heat from that priming powder to reach several granules of powder in the main charge, so that you get multiple " fuses" burning all at once to quickly ignite the powder charge. Not doing so can contribute to that unreliable and unpredictable ignition you complain about.

Drill the touch hole above a line drawn across the top of the pan. That way you you can load the pan full of powder, on a cold dry day in the woods, so you know you have sufficient heat to ignite that main charge when you fire the gun, and not have to worry about a delay because some of the powder has to burn down before the heat of the flame can get into the barrel.

If you men will light a candle, and actually look at it, you will find that the flame has an air space in the middle where there is no heat. Likewise the flame is the coolest at the bottom of the wick. The hottest part of the flame is right where the light of the flame is ending at the top of the flame. In fact, you can light a stick match quickly by putting it about 1/2 inch above the flame.

Now, the lesson to be learned from that observation is that you have to figure a way to get the hot part of a flame to go sideways, and not up, so it can be directed into your barrel to ignite the main charge. Putting powder right to the bottom of the touch hole just makes the flame next to the touch hole the coolest part of the flame. Putting the prime away from the touch hole, on the outside of the pan, will allow you to draw that flame, and its hot " top " down and sideways towards and into the touch hole. If you will fill the pan across the bottom, but leave air above the powder and below the touch hole,( something not all pans are deep enough to allow happen) you can get quick ignition as the powder flames and flames spread in all directions, including entering into the touch hole. Since not all pans are deep enough to allow this last technique to be used, it is the last one I talk about, and then usually only when I personally examine the pan to see how much clearance exists below the hole, and above the floor of the pan.

To improve ignition, a coned liner like that sold by Jim Chambers is recommended. If your gun does not have a liner, then you may benefit from drilling open the hold to 5/64". The inside coned touch hole allows powder to be closer to the opening of the touch hole, which speeds ignition.

Finally with flintlocks, ignition is speeded considerably, and your standard deviation in velocity is the smallest when you do NOT compact the powder, as you would using a percussion gun. You use a coarser granulation of powder than you would choose for a similar caliber in a percussion gun, and you pour the powder so it slides down the barrel instead of free falling.Then seat your PRB on the powder so it just touches the powder, and does not crush, or compact it leaving much air between the individual granules. All this effort gives the prime the best opportunity to light all the powder in the chamber as quickly as a fuse type system can do so, raises pressure in the chamber quickly so that the powder is burned more efficiently and completely, and you attain similar velocites shot after shot. Someone earlier posted some test results that showed that while you get a slightly lower velocity loading your PRB to a mark on your rod, and not compacting the powder( a problem easily corrected by adding a few more grains of powder) putting that ball on top of the powder so it is not crushed or compacted gave the lwest SDV of any method of loading.

With percussion ignition, which burns and blows a hole through the middle of the main charge, and provides its own source of fire to ignite the powder, you get best results by compacting your powder charges consistently, and using the smaller graulation of powder in those rifles. Getting a consistent compaction of the powder charge is the only problem facing percussion gun shooters. Once achieved( I have seen men with bathroom scales at major shooting matches to measure how much pressure they put on each ball when they load their guns) you get the lowest SDV and the best groups.

If you want to argue with someone about this advice, contact me. I don't like to argue, but I listen pretty well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Blackpowder dont need oxygen, you cant compare BP with a candle who need oxygen from the air.
The potassium nitrate brings the oxygen -> KNO3
 
I've been shooting for over 35 years, muzzleloaders and them new fangled breechloaders. Through simple use, I've found that starting with the powder in the middle of the pan and sweeping the rest away from the touchhole gives me the best results. What works for me may not work for you. Just like every gun has it's pet load, so does every gun have it's own little quirks This is part of the fun of muzzleloading, finding those quirks and how to best avoid or use them.
 
Harddog said:
I stated that I have been actively shooting muzzleloaders since 1962. I have actually been shooting muzzleloaders since the early to mid 1950's because where I lived, muzleloaders never went out of style. My grandfather, and Father shot muzzleloaders when I was just a tyke. .

I don't think that there are a whole lot of muzzleloader shooters alive who could have "come before me".
You need to go back much farther than that.

Filling the pan to the bottom of the touch does not create a fuse effect that has to be burned through to get ignition. Only if you have powder in the touch hole will you get the fuse effect.
Filling the pan to the "bottom of the touch hole" is not filling the pan full.
You probably put only a few grains in the pan bancked away from the touch hole because that is how you were taught to do it.
Here you are only speculating. My pan charge is approx.2 grains

Toomuch
........
Shoot Flint
 
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied. I gotten a bunch of things to try on this Saturday. I'll let you know who things turn out.

Thanks again!
George
 
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