Primitive Rear Sight Photos

[Muskeg Stomper]

I swear that I remember seeing a thread in which the originator requested others to post photos of primitive rear sights on smoothbores. After considerable time using the search feature, I still can't find it. perhaps someone will point me in the right direction.

Meanwhile, if any of you would post new photos of primitive rear sights, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Toomuch_36]

Smoothbores did not use rear sights. It wasn't till early 1900s that rear sights started to be used with sluged shotguns.

Toomuch
.............
Shoot Flint

 

[dhobbs]

Toomuch 36,
I respectfully disagree with your statement.While not every smooth bore had a rear sight...they are not uncommon...Carolina guns...AKA as "Type G" English trade guns were produced with Brass rear sights. Early Fusil Fin....AKA as "Type C" French trade guns also were produced with rear sights. The above mentioned guns are smoothbore and are both early to mid 18 cen.
This line of thought about non use of rear sights evolved from the NMLRA Smoothbore match that does not allow rear sights.....while that may be a vehicle used to "level" the playing field with shooters....It does not apply to the authenticity of rear sights in smoothbore guns.

Respecfully,
David Hobbs

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Some Germanic fowling pieces from the early 18th century had a form of rear sight mounted on the barrel.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Many of the Northwest Trade Guns in the Museum of the Fur Trade have rear sights. They vary from quite crude, just a burr of metal raised with a chisel, to nicely dovetailed brass sights.

 

[Okwaho]

A cursory examination of "The Flintlock" by Dr.Torsten Lenk whose book is considered the bible on European flint ignitions from the beginning revealed numerous rear sights {also called back sights} from the early 17th century on through the early 19th century.These varied from rather simple notched sights to the "butterfly" type. I also have seen other French/Liegeoise trade guns with a horizontal groove in the barrel tang and rear of the barrel plug to serve as a rear sight.I have also seen rear sights added to trade guns but can't determine when although it was obviously done during their period of use.
Tom Patton

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Rear sights have been used on smoothbores since matchlock times. Most 18th century military muskets did not have rear sights because aiming was not part of the drill. They relied on mass firepower. Now Light Infantry units did aim but without rear sights on their muskets. The French muskets had a good front sight on the front barrel band. The Bess had a bayonet lug! It was a weird development in firelocks.

 

[Muskeg Stomper]

Thanks for the responses so far folks...I'm well aware that some smoothbores did indeed have rear sights which is why I'd like to see any photos that ya'll can come up with. I'm going to add one to one of my guns and I'd like to do a little comparitive analysis on what will look and work best for my intended application on a dog catch trade gun with an octagon to round barrel produced during the late 17th through early 18th century.

 

[redwing]

Large tang screws are often used for sights. The screw head slot is used as the rear sight. They work well on smooth guns. Some years ago a NWT Gun was found on the South Pass buried in a creek bottom. The old gun had a rear sight. It was the type which had been raised with a chisel and notched.

 

[Extranero]

Many of the Northwest Trade Guns in the Museum of the Fur Trade have rear sights. They vary from quite crude, just a burr of metal raised with a chisel, to nicely dovetailed brass sights.

I've seen this on a few original NW guns, but I've also seen regular dovetailed in sights. I've even seen one gun that had a chunk of copper stuck in a dovetail with a notch cut in it. I think I calculated out once that out of a couple hundred original NW guns that I've seen, something like 12-15% have had some sort of rear sight added along the way. On some its tough to tell when that sight was added, but the chiseled sight is not really something a modern guy would think of. The problem with putting a rear sight on a NW gun is that, on a properly made barrel, you only have about 6-7" ahead of the breech that you can do it and that doesn't cut it for a lot of old eyes.

Sean

 

[Capt. Jas.]

If you are looking for originals, go thru these guns and you should find more than one smoothe gun with a rear sighting arrangement.
I have a pic somehwere of a Chambers PA fowling gun I sold to a member here that had a small brass rear sight lightly dovetailed in. If I can find it, I will post it.
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder...sid=2aabbbf1-8b10-40ee-98d8-b527b4ba8168&pg=1

 

[Tom Black]

On page 198 of Grinslade's book on fowlers he states that 85% of the fowlers (Kentucky style)in this study had rear sights. I've used fowlers with and without a rear sight and much prefer one with a rear sight. Here is a picture of my Mike Miller made fowler with its nubbin of a back sight. It works very well.
Tom Black
Cantucky

 

[Toomuch_36]

I stand corrected.
Thanks to all, clearly a case of "there is always room to learn more". I'm grateful for the additional information.

Toomuch
.......
Shoot Flint

 

[matt denison]

I've experimented with lifting a burr with a chisel on a trade gun barrel. The only way I could get satisfactory results was to heat the area of the barrel red hot first. Otherwise I only got a small flake lifted, couldn't bury the chisel deep enough to make it worthwhile. The Natives may not have cared how this would affect their barrel but I do. I don't reccomend it.

L.Dog

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I love to go wingshooting with people who have rear sights on their fowling pieces. :grin:

 

[Okwaho]

Thanks for the responses so far folks...I'm well aware that some smoothbores did indeed have rear sights which is why I'd like to see any photos that ya'll can come up with. I'm going to add one to one of my guns and I'd like to do a little comparitive analysis on what will look and work best for my intended application on a dog catch trade gun with an octagon to round barrel produced during the late 17th through early 18th century.

Musqueg Stomper, I'm really curious about the "dog catch trade gun" to which you refer.The only trade gun per se that I have seen illustrated or discussed is the very early {Ca.1674} Hudson's Bay Company English Lock gun with a dog catch illustrated and discussed on PP.37-38 of "Trade Guns Of The Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1870" {2003} by S.James Gooding.There is a composite gun illustrated and described as a "fowler musket" by George D. Moller in "American Military Shoulder Arms" Vol.I,Colonial and Revolutionary War Arms on PP.63-64.This gun which I have seen and handled is in the Peabody Museum of Salem Mass.The lock is an early 18th century English true three screw flintlock with a dog safety catch.I would not consider this gun to be a trade gun but it does have a dog catch safety which is very unusual for the 18th century.
Tom Patton

 

[Mike Brooks]

I love to go wingshooting with people who have rear sights on their fowling pieces. :grin:

It always makes my bag of birds double in size.... :wink:

 

[Muskeg Stomper]

Okwaho,

My error. My smoothbore is a musket from MVTC which I have reworked. They advertise it as an "Early Commercial Trade Musket". The words "trade gun" was a Fruedian slip on my part.

The gun represents one that would have had it's stock cut back at the muzzle in order to accept a bayonet and has a brazed lug. In typical frugal New England style, I filed the lug down into an acceptable front sight blade. I've read of a few original New England muskets found that this had been done on.

If you ever get a chance to go to the Buckman Tavern Museum in Lexington, MA., they also have a very interesting early 18th century English true three screw flintlock with a dog safety catch. It also features an iron rear and brass front sights. Erik Bye wrote an article on this one in the July 2008 issue of Muzzle Blasts but the pictures don't show the sights well.

I do really like the looks of the low sight in the photo of Tom Black's fowler.

 

[Dphar]

These are in the MT Historical Society, Helena
These are a little more refined than some which may be a "flap" of metal raised with a chisel on the top flat. There is a much cut down trade gun with one of these chiseled sights in the Park Service Museum at Mammoth in YNP.
IIRC about 2/3s+ of the trade guns in Helena had hind sights.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I love to go wingshooting with people who have rear sights on their fowling pieces. :grin:

I kinda doubt the folks that wanted hind sights on their trade guns back in the day even HAD any small shot, much less wanted to go wing shooting.

Dan