Problems with Flint & Steel

[mechteacher]

I got myself a Pedisoli Flint lock 50 cal rifle for Christmas about 4 years ago. I have a 54 cap lock and revolver cap and ball.
Get one you like and you will be a happy shooter.
One hint, don’t let anyone on the lock side of you when your shooting. That is why many add a flash shield to protect from the blow from the flash hole.

 

[GrandLakeHunter]

A bit out of period but anyone ever tried a fire piston, there pretty neat and once you get the hang of it rather easy to do. I carry at least 3-4 types of fire starting items when out and about,one can never be to over prepared if a emergency situation should arise.

Lighters, quality matches and a couple pocket size magnesium starters are included in my back country pack. Some trips might also get a cheap starter/heater made from tightly roller toilet paper or paper towels placed in a can and soaked with paraffin or old crayons (tuna fish can and sometimes larger if using horses). They work great for wet conditions to get a fire started or warm one's hands.

 

[Rifleman1776]

forgot to mention, I have used burlap successfully. Plain old burlap, not even charred.

 

[nit wit]

char 100 % cotton or use chaga.You need a dry nest that will burn easily, make sureyou char the cotton long enough.
Nit Wit

 

[TDM]

Gathered up some punk wood this afternoon. Now that I know what to look for it takes about 2 minutes to find here. It’s nice and spongy and not wet at all. I’ll get it charred later this week.

 

[pab1]

A bit out of period but anyone ever tried a fire piston, there pretty neat and once you get the hang of it rather easy to do. I carry at least 3-4 types of fire starting items when out and about,one can never be to over prepared if a emergency situation should arise.

I've had one for years but have never really been impressed with it. I look at it more as a novelty than something I would rely on to start fires.

Gathered up some punk wood this afternoon. Now that I know what to look for it takes about 2 minutes to find here. It’s nice and spongy and not wet at all. I’ll get it charred later this week.

A no tin option for charring wood from the great NW Primate.

 

[pab1]

Maybe we need a "Dave Canterbury Bushcraft Section."

The term "bushcraft" has been around since the late 1700s. While in recent years Dave Canterbury has been associated with it (and cashed in on it), Les Hiddens and Mors Kochanski did far more to educate people on bushcrafting.

IMO woodsmanship or bushcraft skills go hand in hand with many activities related to traditional muzzleloaders. Longhunters and mountaineers had to be proficient with many of these skills.

I feel anyone that goes into the woods should have a decent level of woodsmanship/bushcraft skills. I believe its worth practicing many of these skills until they are second nature and can be done in stressful situations. Being proficient with those skills can save lives. Having a false sense of security in mediocre or hypothetical skills can be very dangerous.

 

[Brokennock]

The term "bushcraft" has been around since the late 1700s. While in recent years Dave Canterbury has been associated with it (and cashed in on it), Les Hiddens and Mors Kochanski did far more to educate people on bushcrafting.

IMO woodsmanship or bushcraft skills go hand in hand with many activities related to traditional muzzleloaders. Longhunters and mountaineers had to be proficient with many of these skills.

I feel anyone that goes into the woods should have a decent level of woodsmanship/bushcraft skills. I believe its worth practicing many of these skills until they are second nature and can be done in stressful situations. Being proficient with those skills can save lives. Having a false sense of security in mediocre or hypothetical skills can be very dangerous.

I realize all of that.

The use of the "Dave Canterbury," name was tongue in cheek.

Have ferro rods and titanium strikers, and milk carton fire starters been around since the late 1700's?

 

[appalichian hunter]

Actually no, but if you keep those type of items deep in your kit no one knows they are there, Only you and if the situation should arise in a dire situation those items might save your life. I like most on here like the old ways with that being said my momma did not raise no fool. Better to have and not need than to need and not have type of thing. So comes the next question what if your in a judged woods walk on your equipment, leave the modern stuff in your truck or at home.

 

[pab1]

I realize all of that.

The use of the "Dave Canterbury," name was tongue in cheek.

Have ferro rods and titanium strikers, and milk carton fire starters been around since the late 1700's?

Woodsmanship/bushcrafting has never been limited to equipment or gear created before a certain date. The practice goes back to out earliest ancestors who began using primitive tools, making shelters and learning to create fire to increase their chances of survival. They readily accepted new skills and advances in technology as they came along.

These days most "bushcrafters" use tools and practice skills used by stone age man right along with more modern tools like ferro rods. I brought up the origins of the term bushcraft since many are only familiar with the word in recent years and associate it with individuals like Canterberry.

 

[Brokennock]

Woodsmanship/bushcrafting has never been limited to equipment or gear created before a certain date. The practice goes back to out earliest ancestors who began using primitive tools, making shelters and learning to create fire to increase their chances of survival. They readily accepted new skills and advances in technology as they came along.

These days most "bushcrafters" use tools and practice skills used by stone age man right along with more modern tools like ferro rods. I brought up the origins of the term bushcraft since many are only familiar with the word in recent years and associate it with individuals like Canterberry.

Okay, I didn't want to come right out and say it, I thought the tongue in cheek sarcasm woukd be something that some would "get", but clearly I have to explain myself.
I used Canterbury's name because a lot of what he told people about himself early in what he was doing, leading into the TV show, turned out to be a fraud.
Also, while I understand the possible need for a modern and more reliable back up when in the back country,,, it seems very "off" to me to be having so many references to, and discussion of, modern fire making tools on a forum like thus one.

And yes I know , "but we are discussing it on a computer using electricity and you take your car/truck (not a horse) to where you hunt or trek, blah, blah, blah...."
(Really tired of this lame line of "reasoning")

 

[pab1]

Okay, I didn't want to come right out and say it, I thought the tongue in cheek sarcasm woukd be something that some would "get", but clearly I have to explain myself.
I used Canterbury's name because a lot of what he told people about himself early in what he was doing, leading into the TV show, turned out to be a fraud.
Also, while I understand the possible need for a modern and more reliable back up when in the back country,,, it seems very "off" to me to be having so many references to, and discussion of, modern fire making tools on a forum like thus one.

And yes I know , "but we are discussing it on a computer using electricity and you take your car/truck (not a horse) to where you hunt or trek, blah, blah, blah...."
(Really tired of this lame line of "reasoning")

By far the majority of the posts in this conversation have been centered around flint and steel and making char cloth or charring natural materials. Other methods were briefly mentioned, including friction fire but have not been the focus of the conversation. They were at least relevant to the conversation. Now its turning to references to someone who has gained "celebrity/ notoriety" cashing in on bushcraft.

 

[TDM]

By far the majority of the posts in this conversation have been centered around flint and steel and making char cloth or charring natural materials. Other methods were briefly mentioned, including friction fire but have not been the focus of the conversation. They were at least relevant to the conversation. Now its turning to references to someone who has gained "celebrity/ notoriety" cashing in on bushcraft.

I’m going to try my hand on forging a fire steel out of some 1095 I have. Hopefully in the next couple of days, and we can talk about that.

Also have some punk wood to char for the first time.

 

[pab1]

I’m going to try my hand on forging a fire steel out of some 1095 I have. Hopefully in the next couple of days, and we can talk about that.

Also have some punk wood to char for the first time.

Awesome! I look forward to seeing it! Good luck with the punk wood.

 

[TDM]

Since I’m getting some badly needed rain today I went ahead and fired up the forge. Last time I was home a watched a couple of videos and they were quenching the fire steel in water to get some extra hardness. Now I would never do that with a knife blade, oil only, but I figured to try it out on the two junk steels I have and I wanted to try my hand at making a steel from rebar and 1095 steel.

After I finished, I did a side by side comparison with my file steels on the same flint. The two junk steels remain junk steels, no sparks, nothing. They will disappear for good this time.
I had low expectations for the rebar since most rebar is mild steel, but it actually threw a few good sparks.
I’ve made a couple of knife blades with 1095 before, but never really worked it under the hammer. With my meager talents I found it difficult to work, but I was able to fold it in on itself and forge wield the handle. And, as I feared, even after letting it normalize a few hours before quenching, the strike face cracked in two places. Hot 1095 and water don’t mix. But, it still throws very good sparks as I hoped it would. Pretty much on par with the file steels which I’m so very happy with.

And yes, the 1095 striker is UGLY!
But I was able to easily catch a spark on char cloth with it. I’m going to try making another 1095 striker but with conventional oil quenching.

 

[tenngun]

They also can use a lot of "o" rings etc to maintain the seal. It is much simpler to buy a good, 5-6 in long, HD ferro rod. Thousands of strikes with little to no problems. IMHO. I carry a small Exacto striker on my key chain, Not as easy to use, but will do the job in an emergency ,which is what it is for. Anyone venturing into the wild should have multiple ways to start a fire and redundancy, ie more than one. Carry "two" Bics, they take up practically no room, and will work when you need them too. Also, matches, tea candle & ferro rod. Save the bow drills and flint n steel for the last ditch Mad Max scenarios. The hardest thing to find in the wild is good easily lit tinder and dry material to burn. IMHO

I do find the opposite. If the zombies attack I think I’ll trust my steel as flint grows wild here.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Since I’m getting some badly needed rain today I went ahead and fired up the forge. Last time I was home a watched a couple of videos and they were quenching the fire steel in water to get some extra hardness. Now I would never do that with a knife blade, oil only, but I figured to try it out on the two junk steels I have and I wanted to try my hand at making a steel from rebar and 1095 steel.

After I finished, I did a side by side comparison with my file steels on the same flint. The two junk steels remain junk steels, no sparks, nothing. They will disappear for good this time.
I had low expectations for the rebar since most rebar is mild steel, but it actually threw a few good sparks.
I’ve made a couple of knife blades with 1095 before, but never really worked it under the hammer. With my meager talents I found it difficult to work, but I was able to fold it in on itself and forge wield the handle. And, as I feared, even after letting it normalize a few hours before quenching, the strike face cracked in two places. Hot 1095 and water don’t mix. But, it still throws very good sparks as I hoped it would. Pretty much on par with the file steels which I’m so very happy with.

And yes, the 1095 striker is UGLY!
But I was able to easily catch a spark on char cloth with it. I’m going to try making another 1095 striker but with conventional oil quenching.

Great post, @TDM ! I have puttered with blacksmithing a little in the past, but everything I turned out was butt-ugly. I admire those who can actually hammer something useful out of a hunk of iron or steel.

I am not an expert, but I understand a high-carbon steel is necessary for a fire striker. Steel back in the olden times was a fairly precious commodity, but they learned how to carburize iron by case-hardening. It is my understanding that a lot of old fire steels were case-hardened rather than heat-treated or through-hardened. I can't remember where I read it, but I recall that when the carburized surface of a case-hardened steel was worn through, it could be taken back to a blacksmith to be re-case hardened.

Keith Burgess, who does the Woodsrunner's Diary blog, somewhere acquired an 18th century British steel that was heavily worn from use, but he could not get it to spark. He described heat-treating it himself, to no avail. However, it had obviously been much used. I think it was probably originally case-hardened, but the carburized surface wore through and it was not re-surfaced. Without sufficient carbon in the steel itself, it would not heat-treat properly. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

Can rebar be case-hardened? I'm curious.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[TDM]

Great post, @TDM ! I have puttered with blacksmithing a little in the past, but everything I turned out was butt-ugly. I admire those who can actually hammer something useful out of a hunk of iron or steel.

I am not an expert, but I understand a high-carbon steel is necessary for a fire striker. Steel back in the olden times was a fairly precious commodity, but they learned how to carburize iron by case-hardening. It is my understanding that a lot of old fire steels were case-hardened rather than heat-treated or through-hardened. I can't remember where I read it, but I recall that when the carburized surface of a case-hardened steel was worn through, it could be taken back to a blacksmith to be re-case hardened.

Keith Burgess, who does the Woodsrunner's Diary blog, somewhere acquired an 18th century British steel that was heavily worn from use, but he could not get it to spark. He described heat-treating it himself, to no avail. However, it had obviously been much used. I think it was probably originally case-hardened, but the carburized surface wore through and it was not re-surfaced. Without sufficient carbon in the steel itself, it would not heat-treat properly. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

Can rebar be case-hardened? I'm curious.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Case hardening is beyond my pay grade! I understand the principle but that’s all. And as I’ve said my blacksmithing skills are minimal. It really isn’t that difficult to take a bar of 1080, 1084, or even 1095 steel and make a knife blade out of it because you do most of your shaping with a metal saw or grinder. The forge is just to get it up to critical temperature and quench it, then temper it. I’ve made little odds and ins out of mild steel, it’s easy to work and hammers well. Fine for making hooks and hangers.

Carbonization and steel making has been around for a long time. The more I read about, the earlier the evidence is found, high carbon swords over a 1,000 years old have been reported. I guess the process was lost and found over the centuries. But at my age, using my hammers, with my ability, I find it quite difficult to move high carbon steel! Here’s some of the knives I’ve made.

Almost forgot to answer your question on rebar. Pretty much the answer is no, most all rebar is just mild steel. But there is such a thing as high carbon rebar, not sure what it’s used for but it does exist. Same with railroad spikes, most are mild steel so they can take shock loads but again, there are some higher carbon railroad spikes too. They usually have an “HC” mark on the head. But I don’t know why they were used.
To add carbon/hardness there are paste that can be applied to the surface and heated up. That’s how you can re-harden a frizzen. But it will be very shallow.

 

[TDM]

Notchy, I just edited the post to include info about rebar if you missed it.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Notchy, I just edited the post to include info about rebar if you missed it.

Thanks! I did miss that the first time around.

My dad, who knew basic blacksmithing, told me they used mule hoof trimmings for case hardening, but I did not learn exactly how they did it. He grew up on a subsistence farm in Alabama, and I think they had a simple forge, an anvil, and some tools for basic blacksmithing required on the farm. I'm pretty sure he told me some things were case-hardened. Screwdrivers, for example. However, I don't know what types of iron and steel are capable of being case-hardened. I have no doubt they would have used a lot of recycled metal.

Thanks for the update!

Notchy Bob