proof house markings

[dirtyhands]

I'm getting my second bp revolver. An 1851 Navy. Possibly from Armi San Paulo. It was made in 1985 and some of the instruction papers say Muzzle Loaders Inc. It also has assembly instructions which makes me think it was a kit gun. The guy does not know but says it has never been fired. However the gun has the proof house markings on it. Would a kit gun have proof markings? Don't know how to post pics on this forum. Not familiar with photobucket.

 

[Zonie]

Yes.
The Italians proof all of the guns they are going to export, even kits.

How do they do it, you ask?

I'm sure the Italians use what is called "lot testing".
This method takes a few samples from a large number of parts and prepares them for the test.

If they successfully pass the test, all of the rest of the parts are considered be tested and to have passed the test.

Although at first glance this seems to be a poor way of doing things, it actually is quite accurate and with many items it is the only logical way to do some tests.

Take for instance, ammunition.
In that case, firing the stuff is the test method but if they tested every single cartridge they would end up with nothing to sell, even though they all passed the test.

The level of Lot testing is not an arbitrary thing.

Almost always, the first parts are tested 100 percent. If all of them continue to pass the test over a period of time that includes many "lots", the quantity of parts tested is reduced to something like 85 percent. Again, this is done for several batches of parts over a period of time.

If all of these parts pass the test, the quantity of parts may drop to testing levels of half or 50 percent of the parts.

After a period of time, if there have been no failures at this level the percentage of parts tested may drop to 25 percent or even less.

In the case of ammunition they may test only 50 or 100 cartridges out of a production run of 50,000 rounds.

As long as the materials and the manufacturing process do not change, the likelihood of a defective part passing the test is very small.

Not all countries use this method for potentially dangerous things like firearms.
I believe the United Kingdom and Germany require 100 percent proof testing inspection.

 

[dirtyhands]

Very informative explanation. Thank you. I bought it off Armslist and it is on the way. The guy emailed me a few more pics in the meantime. One is the end of the box. It's light blue box with a yellow tag that states "colt navy 1851 reb kit .36". By the way the gun looks like it's a factory blue. I thought kit guns had to blued also. Did they make kit guns already blued?

 

[Zonie]

Did they make kit guns already blued?

I've never seen a factory blued kit revolver.
All of the ones I've built were bare metal.

I have built a Pedersoli Kentucky pistol that came with a blued barrel.

When it comes to kit guns I've seen some that were just painful to look at. No. I didn't build them. :grin:

I've seen others that were better made than the factory guns they were based on. (Yes, I've built several.)

I've known some people who after putting many hours into building their kit took it to their local gunsmith and had it professionally blued.
(Most gunsmiths don't even know what a "browned" gun looks like).

You say the box calls it a "Colt Navy 1851 Reb kit"?

If so, don't be too surprised if the frame of the gun is made out of brass. (I'm not talking about the trigger guard and grip strap. These two things were brass on the US made Colts).

Anyway, the Confederacy issued an order for copies of the 1851 Colt and most of the makers of these used brass for the pistol frames.

There is nothing really wrong with a brass framed Colt but because the material is weaker than steel it is strongly suggested that you use fairly light powder charges.
Full powder loads can damage the frame.

If the frame is black but made of brass, the builder (or his gunsmith) used Birchwood Casey Brass Black to blacken it.

 

[hawkeye2]

I haven't looked at a kit revolver in years but when they came out in the '70s they came assembled and could be shot as is. The frame, backstrap, and trigger guard were as cast and the barrel had milling marks on it. They were blued to prevent rust in storage/shipping. You had to smooth and polish the parts and draw file the barel and then refinnish them. The grips were oversize and rough. They also usually needed work in the internals to make them a smooth functioning piece. I had a '51 Navy kit but don't remember the manufacturer however it did have a serial # and other markings. I don't remember if it had proof markings or not but as I stated it was shootable as it came out of the box so it could have been. I still have the cylinder and a couple of inches of the barrel and I'll check to see if it had the rolled in scene on the cylinder when I get home from work.

 

[wolfundrabe]

for what it's worth, all the C&B kit's I've handled (maybe a dozen)came "in the white", some had proofs, some didn't, same with serial numbers. The marked ones were in the minority.

 

[dirtyhands]

From the pics I know it's brass but that's ok. I have to use a public range and only get out there once a month. With my other firearms I shoot these bp revolvers will not get overused. Plus I use light loads. Thanks fellas for all the info.

 

[dirtyhands]

Thanks Hawkeye but just to clarify: They were fully assembeled but were called KIT guns? Seems contradictory but the world of bp and firearms in general goes that way. LOL.

 

[hawkeye2]

The kit part was that you had to file off the parts because they had the as cast finish and then polish and blue. The grips were oversize and rough and the barrel needed to be drawfiled and polished. You had to disassemble the gun to do all this.

 

[dirtyhands]

I see. The only reason I asked is that I saw a pic somewhere, can't remember, that showed a box with a diasassembled gun and all the parts were in numbered compartments.

 

[dirtyhands]

It came in. It's as Hawkeye stated: Assembled but somewhat crude finish. It's blued. The styrofoam box supports the assembled theory as it is cut out for a complete firearm not little individual compartments for a from scratch assy. The brass is cast and somewhat rough with flashing seams. Grip is unfinished and although a little oversized I like the way it fits my hand. Had it all apart and there was a lot of hardened manure in it. With my average skills and equipment I will improve it but it will not be a factory like finish. But I like it and as a shooter I cant complain. By the way it is an Armi San Paulo. Found the DGG marks in a circle. Thanks again for all the info. This is the place to come for it.

 

[dirtyhands]

One more thing. The back of the cyl does not have the pins for the hammer notch to engage. I guess ASP realized these pins can damage the raised recoil shield as I have read somewhere(here?). Just a guess though.

 

[Zonie]

There are quite a lot of Italian reproduction Colts that don't have the safety pins.
The reason for not drilling the holes and installing the pins was cost cutting.

The thing that damages the recoil shield is the rear of the cylinder where it stops on it when the gun is fired or when you push the cylinder rearward.
This damage only happens if full charge powder loads or heavy slugs are fired in a brass framed revolver.

 

[dirtyhands]

I was working on pics. No dice.

 

[dirtyhands]

lets try links again. If it works a big thanks to Zonie walking me thru it.

 

[dirtyhands]

I don't know why only 1 pic came out. Here are the others

 

[dirtyhands]

Here is the 3rd one. Don't why they all did not appear in one post?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Don't why they all did not appear in one post?

Because you posted the first one, then you replied to your own post twice (ten minutes apart).

 

[dirtyhands]

Don't know exactly what you mean? In photobucket I clicked the share link and img for each pic. When I click paste it the post only the one pic showed up. Pls bear with me at 68 not the sharpest knife in the draw when it comes to computers. Thank you.

 

[ZUG]

Chuckle, Chuckle, Dirtyhands -- pratice makes perfect - that's what I tell my mother with her computer progress and she is 87 - she does very good by the way :grin: .