Proper Shirt Style?

[NeilMacleod]

The last shirt I made was from a 19th century pattern, and was wondering if this is still to "Modern" for period style. Goes past the hips.
Made from linen, original pattern has the arms puffy so I pulled them in a bit.
If this is ok then I want to maybe make the next one in pig skin sewed, a bit larger so underwear can be worn.
Also looking at these; http://www.varsityrendezvous.com/pdf/clothing.pdf

 

[Cruzatte]

The 19th century saw amazing style changes in the patterns of men's shirts. Could you narrow your time down to one possible decade? If early, say 1800-10, I'm a little bothered by the inset sleeves.

 

Depending on who and where you where, people could be very conscious of "style". You need to be specific about who, where and when.

Asking if something is correct for an entire continent over a 100 year period is not realistic.

 

[NeilMacleod]

No idea period wise since this is new to me to being specific, all i can say is I like the "Mountain Men" style so maybe mid 1800's, I want to expand this to a full coat so any help to what I should be looking at would be appreciated. This style was for "city folk" and normally had frills on it and I left them off.
Thanks!

"inset sleeves", what problem, no triangle base?

 

[Black Hand]

Shirts from the 18-early 19th centuries were made from a collection of squares and rectangles with a neck opening and a single button at the collar (No laces or grommets). What did vary was the width of the collar and cuffs. I'd avoid using the pattern you linked, as it is incorrect. In general, I would avoid anything clothing-wise shown on the parent site - works for a 1970's Rendezvous but doesn't represent reality. https://www.bing.com/images/search...=4&qpvt=18th+century+shirt+pattern&ajaxhist=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search...=3&qpvt=18th+century+shirt+pattern&ajaxhist=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search...b32706b23d5605d5c4ae94d2c14bfb08o0&ajaxhist=0

Why would you EVER want to make a shirt from Suede Pig Skin...?

 

[NeilMacleod]

The sued is for a coat not shirt, the point was to expand on the pattern for a shirt.
Thanks for the links, so its more box style cuts, the medieval patters I have are similar just more primitive.
Thanks! will work on that next

 

[Black Hand]

The sued is for a coat not shirt, the point was to expand on the pattern for a shirt.

18 & 19th century coats were tailored. If you use a shirt pattern, it won't look right.

And the same question applies - Why would you EVER make a coat from Suede Pigskin? Coats were made from wool (primarily), linen or silk (if you could afford the material). Some coats during the Fur Trade period were made from brain-tan. Suede Pigskin might work well for motorcycle jackets and couches, but not for a period coat.
https://www.bing.com/images/search...pvt=18th+19th+century+coat+patterns&FORM=IGRE

 

[Claude Mathis]

No idea period wise since this is new to me to being specific, all i can say is I like the "Mountain Men" style so maybe mid 1800's..

I know it's hard when starting if you don't have something specific in mind. There's a big difference in just dressing up in "old time clothes" and actually trying to portray a person from the past. And, everyone has their own level of commitment to authenticity. Mostly, all you can do is the best you can and enjoy it at your own level of commitment.

The danger in not focusing on a specific character at a particular place and point in time is, slowly collecting a conglomeration of gear that may not go together. Time and money wasted (maybe).

Once I chose a specific persona - "hunter and scout at Fort Willam Henry, 1757", it became much easier to know what I could or could not use. It doesn't mean you have to stay with only one persona, but narrowing it down keeps things in the same realm.

 

[necchi]

wondering if this is still to "Modern" for period style.

Yes.

I want to maybe make the next one in pig skin sued,

No.

 

[necchi]

Asking if something is correct for an entire continent over a 100 year period is not realistic.

:bull:
Oh, I forgot,, Sorry,, Your right.

Every person heading west from 1720 through 1860 stopped in Saint Louis and completely re-fitted all of their gear for actual "mountain man" gear,,
And the selection of gear available in Saint Louis changed every decade
1720-1730,,
1731-1740,,
1741-1750,,
etc,,,,,
Just check the movie Jeremiah Johnson for proper dates of the cap lock "Hawken Rifle" being available
We should have checked with you first,, would have saved time.

 

Two things, you obviously missed my point and you're a sorry failure at intelligent sarcasm. :rotf:

Asking if something is correct for an entire continent over a 100 year period is not realistic.

:bull:
Oh, I forgot,, Sorry,, Your right.

Every person heading west from 1720 through 1860 stopped in Saint Louis and completely re-fitted all of their gear for actual "mountain man" gear,,
And the selection of gear available in Saint Louis changed every decade
1720-1730,,
1731-1740,,
1741-1750,,
etc,,,,,
Just check the movie Jeremiah Johnson for proper dates of the cap lock "Hawken Rifle" being available
We should have checked with you first,, would have saved time.

 

[Black Hand]

...I like the "Mountain Men" style so maybe mid 1800's, I want to expand this to a full coat so any help to what I should be looking at would be appreciated.

The "Mountain Man" (i.e. Fur Trade) period unofficially started with the Lewis & Clark Expedition in 1804-05. The official Fur Trade period was ~1820-1840. That said, trade in furs had been going on in North America for about 150 years by then with the Hudson Bay Company and others.

Claude is correct - choose a period of interest (10-20 years) and focus your study. Then study period pieces from museums, find proper patterns and materials, then make clothing. Some clothing changed very little (shirts) while others (Breeches/Pantaloons/Waistcoats/Coats) changed considerably over a century.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I think it's time to take a step back and put some time in on research. All too often the period patterns are way too generic and try to cover far too many styles and times.


For the time being, let's stay away from the pig suede. And yes, while you made a nice shirt, it's way too modern.

This is much too complicated a subject to cover on an Internet forum. My recommendation is to get a book on the topic and see how shirts changed throughout the time period.

There is a good book on men's shirts titled "Thoughts on Men's Shirts in America 1750-1900" by William L. Brown. The book includes patterns for 19 shirts, 2 smocks and 2 nightshirts.

There's good details of changes and instructions on how to sew the shirts. There's also descriptions of the fabrics.

 

[NeilMacleod]

Doing some quick search it seams I like the 1820's, lots of changes in this period and things coming together.
Will look closer tomorrow. It is a hard choice.
Thanks

 

[NeilMacleod]

"Thoughts on Men's Shirts in America 1750-1900" by William L. Brown.

$152 on Amazon, will have to see if a library has it.
Yup the more I get into it the more choices I need to make.
Thanks!

 

[Black Hand]

Excellent resource (and less than $152.00): https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/306/1/BOOK-TF18C
https://www.amazon.com/Tidings-Eighteenth-Century-Beth-Gilgun/dp/1880655047

 

[Black Hand]

The paintings/drawings of Alfred Jacob Miller https://www.bing.com/images/search...&qpvt=alfred+jacob+miller+paintings&FORM=IGRE and Karl Bodmer https://www.bing.com/images/search...-16&sk=&cvid=C7E2D4D97020402FB23A413A20F5A7B2 are also excellent resources.

 

[Black Hand]

Another book of patterns and tailoring: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HDE4EVM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
http://historyoffashiondesign.com/the-cut-of-mens-clothes-1700-1800/

Can be downloaded here, but it is a Russian Reenactor site, so proceed at your own risk:
http://reenactor.ru/ARH/PDF/The_Cut.pdf

 

[NeilMacleod]

Thanks for the great Link's!
Ive been doing allot of browsing this morning pictures and all and found this link. Basic pattern that shows up allot "Frock Jacket", so I can start with a shirt from this, also indicated by Black Hand link. So Il try a test piece today http://milfordprinters.com/1023/Longhunter_Frock_Pattern.pdf

 

[Black Hand]

Not a bad pattern, but too early for a Mountain Man. Known to have been used in 1812 and before (around the Revolutionary War) but not much afterwards. Frock Coats of the Mountain Man period were tailored coats. http://www.manuellisaparty.com/articles/pfd's/Coats1.pdf http://www.manuellisaparty.com/articles/docs/Coats.doc