proper use of fillers in cylinder

[ccmountainman]

WD40 is petroleum and really shouldn't be used anyway.
And it is highly flammable. and shouldn't be used because of that.
But still if the balls made a full friction fit, don't know how the flame would of propagated past the ball anyway.
Never have used overball lube myself. Been shooting these things since 1978.
Good lube is non flammable.
Beeswax and animal lard mixture is probably the best and cheapest too.

 

[bpd303]

That was just one of many lessons learned long ago (early 60s). The chain fire came from the rear of the cylinder at the loose fitting caps (another lesson learned). I was watching from a short distance and saw the flame engulf all the caps.

I removed the cylinder & checked the gun and no damage occurred, other than some lead smears. I flushed it with water to remove the fouling, dried it and fired several more cylinders full while my brother was changing. :youcrazy:

 

[azmntman]

I did have it happen to an old brass 1858 when I was like 16. Not remarkable enough to recall vividly but I could tell it happened. No damage and no injury (and I wore the same shorts home). IIRC three went off at once. I used to use over ball lube when loading so about had to be loose caps?

 

[Zonie]

I'm sure many of you know this but for those that don't, Colt's first revolver had a shield around the rear of the cylinder to protect the capped nipples.
The nipples stood proud of the material around them, much like the nipples on the Pepperboxes that were becoming popular at the time.

Testing showed that on almost every shot, multiple chambers fired.

Removing the shield to expose the rear of the cylinder reduced the chain firing but it was still a problem. That's when Colt hit on the idea of counterboring the nipple holes leaving material between the nipples to protect the adjacent nipples from the blast of flame from the firing chamber.
This worked to greatly reduce the instances of chain firing and Colt Patented the idea.
Actually, he didn't patent the idea of counterboring the area so that the nipple sit in a machined pocket.
He was wise enough to patent the whole idea of having some sort of protective dam between the nipples.
That was wise of him because it allowed him to win several lawsuits against other would be revolver makers for use of different deflectors between the nipples on their guns.
It also prevented the makers of Pepperboxes from using his idea resulting in the continued multiple firing of several barrels which the Pepperboxes were famous for.

Anyway, I mentioned all of this because it has long been known that flames entering the unfired chambers thru their nipples, with or without caps in place can cause chain-fires.

With this in mind, it is a wise shooter who uses caps that properly fit the nipples on his revolver. It's also a real good idea to glance at the nipples after firing the pistol.
More than a few times, the recoil from firing will cause a loose fitting cap to fall off of the nipples.

 

[Tom Compton]

"Documented" no but personal experience. My brother had one way back when we were shooting a Remington. All six chambers went off at the same time. He was using some kind of spray lube WD40 I think. While I checked the gun, he went in and changed his shorts. :slap:

Ok. That's good enough for a chain fire confirmation for me. And an eye witness account is documentation in my book vs the myths and friend of an acquaintence heard at the gas pump kinda stuff.

Oh, do you think using a highly flammable lube MIGHT be part of the problem on that one.
TC

 

[Tom Compton]

Thanks Zonie that Col Colt and others had chain fires and patents trying to prevent them is certainly documentation.

It appears though that all of these were due to flame migrations around and thru the nipples rather than thru the front of the cylinder. The OP here was about fillers which evolved to include grease over the ball and then chain fires.

I would like to modify my question: are there any documented cases of chain fires where the ignition came from the front of the cylinder?

Thanks to all. This is a good discussion and the posts have all been civil.
TC

 

[Rifleman1776]

are there any documented cases of chain fires where the ignition came from the front of the cylinder?

Will you take my personal 'eyes on' observation as documentation?
A fellow showed up at our range with a new c&b revolver. He proceeded to load but with no wad or grease. I advised him loading and shooting that way could cause a chain fire and possibly be dangerous.
His response was not family forum appropriate. Guess wat? First shot ignited every cylinder. Watta shocker. He walked away pretty chagrined but uninjured.
Only chain fire I have ever seen. I don't have my revolvers anymore but did always grease or use lubed (waxed) wads. Preference was for the wads.

 

[Grumpa]

Not doubting what you saw, but there is no evidence that the chain fire came from the front end of the cylinder rather than being caused by flame getting around the caps.

If the balls are properly seated, shaving a lead ring, the front is sealed.

However, I have to laugh at his being properly chagrined after his rude response to your friendly advice. :haha:

 

[Rifleman1776]

He departed with tail between legs, no doubt. :grin:
But, it sure looked like a frontal chain fire.
BTW, I was once told the c&b revolvers are designed to allow a ball to clear the gun in an ignited cylinder that is out of battery. Looking at our most popular style revolvers this certainly looks to me to be a probable concept. Any revolver history experts out there to confirm/quash this notion?

 

[nkbj]

Brass frame 1851 repro in .44 caliber. First percussion revolver that we (brother and myself) had ever used. He forgot the lube in front of the balls and had multiple chambers go off.

 

[nkbj]

But, what ever happened to that proper use of fillers thing?

 

[Rifleman1776]

But, what ever happened to that proper use of fillers thing?

Did we go ff ? That's never happened before. :rotf:
Actually, IMHO, and some others, the proper filler is no filler at all unless it is a wad. My preference is a wad. Grease over ball second, but messy, best.

 

[phoenix511]

Back to the original question about using fillers in a BP revolver:

Some target pistol shooters use small charges, just enough to get the ball to the target, and enough so the wind doesn't play havoc. These small powder charges leave considerable space in the cylinder if the ball is pressed on them ... leaving a gap where the ball must jump before hitting the forcing cone. Some say this jump is detrimental to accuracy, thus filler to get the ball closer to the forcing cone.

I have no data to support this other than comments made by a 75yr old former NMLRA pistol champ, from 30 years ago. The minimal "jump" theory makes, at least to me, some sense.

Maybe someone on the Forum can comment about the accuracy impact of bullet jump from back in the cylinder to the forcing cone.

 

[M. De Land]

Velocity of the ball is increasing very quickly at ignition and the less velocity it has reached moving straight ahead before it is squeezed down and forced to rotate the less distortion it will encounter.
The less distortion to the projectile the more efficiently it will fly and the less influence will out side elements have on it trajectory patch.
A so called ball is not a ball at all by the time it is loaded into the chamber if of the right diameter.
There will be a parallel sided belt about it's waist and this belt is what will engage the rifling and impart the rotation to this partial cylinder with two (more or less) round ends on it.
The belt about the projectiles waist is initiated by cylinder mouth shear at seating and then again by the forcing cone squeezing it down further before encountering the rifling of the barrel.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks Zonie that Col Colt and others had chain fires and patents trying to prevent them is certainly documentation.

It appears though that all of these were due to flame migrations around and thru the nipples rather than thru the front of the cylinder....

I would like to modify my question: are there any documented cases of chain fires where the ignition came from the front of the cylinder?

Colt gave a presentation about chain fire events and his design of a chamfered chamber mouth to prevent it. He also held a patent on this idea.

For documentation, follow this link to Berkley's post where he shows not only the quote but the drawing of the modified cylinder.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...tid/293643/post/1478022/fromsearch/1/#1478022

Interestingly, most of the revolvers his company made during the 1850-1865 period did not have these chamfered chambers.

Also interesting, the loading instructions that came with Colts revolvers made no mention of fillers or wads.

The following is a quote from those instructions:

"


DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING COLT'S PISTOLS.

First explode a cap on each nipple to clear them from oil or dust, then draw back the hammer to the half-cock, which allows the \par
cylinder to be rotated; a charge of powder is then placed in one of the chambers, keeping the barrel up. and a ball with the pointed end upwards without wadding or patch is
put into the mouth of the chamber. turned under the rammer, and forced down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so that it cannot hinder its rotation
(care should be used in ramming down the ball not to shake [?] the powder from the chamber, thereby reducing the charge).
This is repeated until all the chambers are loaded. Percussion-caps are then placed on the nipples on the right of the lock-frame, where, by drawing back the hammer in the full-cock
the arm is in condition for a discharge by pulling the trigger; a repetition of the same motion produces the like results with six shots without reloading.

N.B. [?]--It will be safe to use all the Powder the chambers will hold, when loading with the flask, leaving room for the Ball, whether the Powder is strong or weak. Fine grain Powder is the best. Soft lead must be used for the balls. The cylinder is not to be taken off when loaded. The hammer, when at full cock forms the sight by which aim is taken.
To carry the arm safely when loaded let down the hammer on one of the pins between each nipple, on the end of the cylinder.
>> The arm should be throughly cleaned and oiled after firing, partriculary the arbor-pin on which the cylinder turns.

DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING WITH COLT'S FOIL CARTRIDGE

Take [?] the white case off the Cartridge, by holding the bullet end and tearing it down with the black tape. Place the Cartridge in the mouth of the chamber of the cylinder,
with the pointed end of the bullet uppermost, one at a time and turn them under the rammer, forcing them down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder so that they cannot hinder its rotation.
To ensure certainty of Ignition, it is advisable to puncture the end of the Cargtridge, so that a small portion of gunpowder may escape into the chamber while loading the pistol.

DIRECTIONS FOR CLEANING

Set the lock at half-cock; drive out the key that holds the barrel and cylinder to the lock-frame, then draw off the barrel and cylinder by bringing down the lever and forcing the rammer on the partition between the chambers. Take out the nipples. Wash the cylinder and barrel in warm water, dry and oil them throughly; oil freely the base pin on which the cylinder revolves.

TO TAKE THE LOCK TO PIECES, CLEAN AND OIL

First--Remove the stock, by turning out bottom and two rear screws that fasten it to guard and lock-frame, near hammer.
Second-- Loosen the screw that fastens mainspring to the trigger guard and turn spring from under tumbler of the hammer.
Third--Remove the trigger guard by turning out the three screws that fasten it to the lock-frame.
Fourth--Turn out the screw and remove the double arm spring that bears upon the trigger and bolt.
Fifth--Turn out the screw pins that hold the trigger and bolt in their places.
Sixth--Turn out the remaining screw-in and remove the hammer with hand attached, by draswing it downwards out of the lock-frame. Clean all the parts and oil them throughly.

TO PUT THEM TOGETHER--Replace the hammer with hand-spring attached, then the bolt, the trigger, the sear spring, the trigger-guard, the mainspring, and finally the handle, returning each screw to its proper place, the arm is again in for use."

 

[bpd303]

Ok. That's good enough for a chain fire confirmation for me. And an eye witness account is documentation in my book vs the myths and friend of an acquaintence heard at the gas pump kinda stuff.

Oh, do you think using a highly flammable lube MIGHT be part of the problem on that one.
TC

I'm sure the lube was the cause, because we had shot many cylinders prior to the chain fire. The cylinder became fouled to the point it wouldn't turn, so he sprayed it around the nipple recoil shield area while spinning the cylinder. Then loaded it with Crisco over the balls.

 

[Tom Compton]

Again, great discussion. I am not presuming there are no cases of chain fire from the front of the cylinder, just asking as many times unproven theories are repeated many times and become "fact". Zonie's research in particular is of interest. Maybe a cylinder could be loaded but 5 nipples replaced with plugs. Then a chain fire would obviously come from the front. As someone said, proper loading would include loading balls that shave a ring of lead.


I mostly shoot my Ruger old Army in matches and then only one particular chamber. I've not shot where timed fire for revolvers is required. I have carried it when hunting or just roaming the lease (snakes, turtles, armadillos, etc) with all chambers loaded with 40 gr FFg and the ball covered with the lube.

Back to the question of fillers, the load is 20 gr FFg then an equal volume of Cream of Wheat and a .457 ball covered with a grease/lube.

Obviously firing a single chamber does not require greasing to prevent a chain fire but it does keep fouling soft and makes for easy cleanup.

Using this procedure, my best 25 yd score to date is 97-5X.

I wonder if a light application of grease or other non flammable substance over the caps would prevent the nipple end chain fires but not contaminate the cap. IIRC military ammo years ago had primers sealed with wax. How did Hickock load his .36s? Apparently he shot them often.
TC

 

[FishDFly]

"As someone said, proper loading would include loading balls that shave a ring of lead."


There are a number of gunsmith's that are or who have converted ROA's to .36 cal.

They re-barrel the pistol, normally a 9MM Shilen barrel. The cylinder is sleeved to .36.

The proper loading sequence is powder, filler, ball, seat the ball and some type of lube on top of the ball.

The interesting part is that the balls are .360 and no ring is shaved.

The only source of .362 molds is Pedersoli and I have heard they are expensive.

The converted ROA's have a major following in the High Master group.

 

[azmntman]

Other than a savings on lead and powder why would one prefer a .36 over a .44 (or .45).??? I must admit I been thinking I need a .36 1851 (and had a 1858 once). But for hunting or protection is a .36 enough whoomph? For range cannot a .44/.45 be acurized as well as a .36?

Just asking, I have no thoughts??

 

[M. De Land]

Target shooters gravitate to the .36 because the reduced recoil aids the shooter in the fatigue factor at the end of a long string of fire and day of shooting.