Prussian, Potsdam 1809 musket

[Tinker2]

The last gun I got [ last week? ] is a old original Prussian, Potsdam 1809 musket converted from flint to percussion, a carbine or just cut off I don’t know. So any of you know any of the perticulars of the Prussian, Potsdam 1809 carbines? Length of barrel? Any information is appreciated.

The gun:
Not loaded. Missing the hammer, hammer screw is snapped off, stock busted, smooth bore, barrel may cleanup, most likely cut off, not too pure. Still held together with the old black sticky tape and wire.
Lock is marked Potsdam.
Looks like the gun on Page 146 in my “The Rifle Shoppe” catalog, just shorter.

Batteries are dead in my camera, will post pictures soon.

To junk, or not to junk, that is the question.
What I will do with this depends on the information I get from your well respected comments.



Thanks
Tinker2

 

[jdstrang]

If you want a restoration project, sounds like you have a start. Depends on how much time & $$ you want to invest.

Original Potsdams in really nice shape can be had for $700-$900, oddly enough. They were made in various proto-German towns by community armories, so there are a lot of variations in details. Barrels about 42 inches, smooth-bored .69 to .72 or larger.

If you need parts or want to sell it as a parts gun, you might contact Lodgewood: http://www.lodgewood.com/
Dunlap can supply the wood:
http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/milstocks.htm

But, If you just want to throw it away, you're more than welcome to throw it MY way! :wink:

 

[Tinker2]

The lock.

]

The gun

Tinker2

 

[jdstrang]

That's, uh, quite a challenge, restoration-wise.... :shocked2:

Have you had the lock out of the stock to see what, if any, internals remain, or what shape they're in? I did a post-fire-sprinkler cleanup on an acquaintance's family heirloom Pottsdam a few years back, and was shocked to find that the internals were clean and crisp as the day they rolled out of Neisse.

I have the one-page N-SSA spec sheet for Pottsdams in my Word documents. Send me a PM with your email addy, and I'll send it along to you if you want it.

Boy, that one could keep you busy all winter. :hmm:

 

[Tinker2]

If you want a restoration project, sounds like you have a start. Depends on how much time & $$ you want to invest.

If the barrel is right for a carbine then time & $$ is ok.
If not then it’s just parts for whatever.
Will be open to ideas.

“a lot of variations in details”

Should make it easier to restore and be right?

“smooth-bored .69 to .72 or larger.”

Looks to be .74
I am looking for any information on carbine barrel lengths?

“But, If you just want to throw it away, you're more than welcome to throw it MY way!”

Trust me, I don’t throw anything away.




Tinker2

 

[Tinker2]

Have you had the lock out of the stock to see what, if any, internals remain, or what shape they're in?

What you see is is what I have done.

I have the one-page N-SSA spec sheet for Pottsdams in my Word documents. Send me a PM with your email addy, and I'll send it along to you if you want it.

Yes please do [email protected]

Boy, that one could keep you busy all winter.

It won’t be this winter I think.


Tinker2

 

[Many Klatch]

You know that doesn't look all that bad. It needs a hammer and a new nipple of course. You'll be surprised what a coat of oil will do for that stock. The brass will clean up easily. The barrel is probably still good and could be shot.

Many Klatch

 

[Tinker2]

Many Klatch

The stock is worse then it looks, even if you think it looks bad.
The stock is fixable to my way of thinking and/or replaceable.
A new hammer and nipple won’t be hard, I just may not care to
fix or recreate it if the barrel length is not a carbine length that
was used.
I am convinced that it is cut down but if carbines had this size
barrels or shorter, then that is how I would rebuild/recreate it.
I believe that in the Napoleonic Wars they used a lot of carbines.
I would like to find as much information that I can.




Tinker2

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

If you want to restore it to something that actually existed at the time you will have to start somewhere else. German carbines of the time had entirely different locks and the barrels were pinned or keyed, no bands. They bore no similarity to the infantry musket at all. You could restore it to the condition it was last used, by someone but hard to tell who, and use just what you have. Even if you don't want it, someone is bound to think it is the coolest thing on wheels. And the practise is always a good thing.

 

[Many Klatch]

The important thing is to fix the gun back up to usable condition. It may be broken in the wrist and that is why the friction tape is there. That can be fixed. Fix it up and if you don't care for it when you are done, there will be somebody that is looking for just such a gun for their collection.

I bought an old CW Springfield that was in about that bad a condition for $35 once at an antique store. I fixed it up and piddled with it for a month or two. I shot it a couple of times and the barrel was good. I sold it for $300 to someone that wanted it a lot more than I did.

Many Klatch

 

[brubincam]

-----when my DAD died my MOM gave me his old Ithica double--the wrist was broken right in half--took it to a gun smith and he repaired it and said it will not break again in the same place--can't see the repair--holds together very well in use--someone could probably repair your stock ---the smith that fixed mine is not doing gun repair anymore-----

 

[Tinker2]

The important thing is to fix the gun back up to usable condition. It may be broken in the wrist and that is why the friction tape is there. That can be fixed. Fix it up and if you don't care for it when you are done, there will be somebody that is looking for just such a gun for their collection.

Many Klatch

I took the gun to friend’s place and got it apart. The stock was in a lot of pieces. The tape, wire and trigger guard was all that was holding the stock together. The wood’s a little wormy, some dry rot, and parts missing.

The lock looks good inside, sear screw had worked out but all looks good. I have it soaking in a cleaning, penetrating potion. Barrel is in a bucket with some of the same concoction.

I will get a picture of the wood


Tinker2

 

[Tinker2]

If you want to restore it to something that actually existed at the time you will have to start somewhere else. German carbines of the time had entirely different locks and the barrels were pinned or keyed, no bands. They bore no similarity to the infantry musket at all. You could restore it to the condition it was last used, by someone but hard to tell who, and use just what you have. Even if you don't want it, someone is bound to think it is the coolest thing on wheels. And the practise is always a good thing.

Va.Manuf.06

You burst my bubble.
I had read [can’t find it again] that the Prussians used more of the 1809 carbines then the 1809 muskets in some of their Regiments.
So ..I assumed. Well plan “B” then?
Yes practice is always a good thing. Priorities may get in the way but we will see, maybe.



Thanks
Tinker2

 

[Tinker2]

-----when my DAD died my MOM gave me his old Ithica double--the wrist was broken right in half--took it to a gun smith and he repaired it and said it will not break again in the same place--can't see the repair--holds together very well in use--someone could probably repair your stock ---the smith that fixed mine is not doing gun repair anymore-----

rubincam

I did not say that it is not repairable. Yet anyways. I will take pictures and post them, then we will see.


I do aprecate all of the help.

Tinker2

 

[Many Klatch]

Looks like you have a good stock to practice on. My Springfield stock was kind of like that. Wrist was broken but most of the pieces were still there.

There is a trick with epoxy and stainless steel bolts that can be used to put a busted wrist back together. Get some long stainless bolts and cut the heads off. This will be your rebar. You need to drill matching over sized holes in the wood in the fore and aft pieces. Fill the holes with epoxy front and back. Then insert the stainless steel pins. Push it all together and let it set up. Once you have the remaining original wood stabilized, you can fabricate and add the missing pieces.

It helps if you pre stain the epoxy. Mix some paint pigment into the epoxy as you are stirring it up. That way the epoxy will be a more proper color.

Many Klatch

 

[jdstrang]

Yeah, I'm afraid Va.Manuf.06 pretty much nailed it. I've had several email exchanges with my friends who know these muskets, and the consensus is it was a post-service conversion to an easier-handling barrel length for the civilian trade.

Restoration would require a replacement full-length stock, new or extended barrel and middle band/spring assembly besides the hammer & screw. That's a lot like putting a new car under an old radiator cap. 'Course, if you really like that ol' radiator cap... :hmm:

 

[Tinker2]

I said I would post pictures of the wood so this is it.
You will understand why I have been hesitant/wavering in what I may do with this.

I might use Many Klatch’s idea of “trick with epoxy and stainless steel bolts” but don’t hold your breath please.

If some day I do and it looks OK I will post the what & how, if not I may bury it and never tell.

Anyway, thank you for all your help it was truly appreciated.

Thanks again for your input
Tinker2

 

[Zonie]

Bury it.

While I think it's a great idea to try to salvage a piece of history, the wood rot and multiple breaks IMO makes this one beyond saving.

 

[jdstrang]

Sad as it may be, I fear that stock has "Do Not Resuscitate" written all over it. :surrender:

I'd be inclined to harvest for resale all the metal parts, including that ramrod stopper plate embedded above the trigger guard inlet. Then I'd take the remains of that ancient wood to the fireplace or stove and concoct some appropriate ceremony to send its dry-rotted remains off to Valhalla. It served long and faithfully, endured much abuse, and deserves an honorable funeral pyre.

 

[Pork Chop]

Come on, some Johnson's paste wax and a little wood putty and that will be like new! :grin:

(I would use it as a pattern for making/modifying a stock to replace it..)