• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Pure lead?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Friar_Tuck

32 Cal.
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Ok guys, once again this may be a newbie question, but here goes. Why is it that I hear so many say that a round ball for muzzleloading has to be 100% pure lead? The answer I usually get is that it needs to be soft to form to the rifling, but I thought that was what the patch was for. I don't want to start an arguement, but I have a pile of lead here that is from old scuba weights, it seems to be rather soft, but I have no idea how pure it is. I am new to the Black Powder side of firearms, and sure am enjoying this site.
Thanks,
Friar
 
OK Friar Tuck, you may not have wanted to start an argument, but you probably did. First, you didn't say what you want to do with your cast balls. Hunt, plink, shoot targets in competition, make fishing weights? Since you posted in the Roundball Accuracy category, I'll try to help you with accuracy, rather than penetration into the vitals of an elephant.

There's no law or rule, that I'm aware of, that says you have to use pure lead for your round ball casting. But, there are some things you need to be aware of. Most of them are just common sense. Do stay away from battery plates and other really nasty sources of lead.

Here's a few characteristics of pure lead.

1. It melts at a lower temperature than most other suitable metals
2. It weighs more per volume than most other suitable metals (You probably could use pure gold.)
3. It's softer than most alloys.

Lead and lead alloy hardness is rated on a scale known as the Brinell scale. Similarly, steel alloys are rated on the Rockwell scale.

Pure lead has a Brinell hardness of about 5; wheel weights have a brinell hardness of about 8 or 9. Linotype has a brinell hardness of about 22.

You can buy a rather inexpensive tester to let you know how hard your scrap lead may be. Lead can be dented pretty easily with a fingernail.

For the pressures that we deal with in a muzzleloader, pure lead "obturates" better than does a harder metal. Yes the cloth patch initally holds the ball in place, but as the powder charge burns and pressure builds, the back end of the ball gets a "kick in the pants and initally travels faster than the front of the ball. Then the ball expands in diameter and begins to fill out the bore. At that point, the patch plays a much smaller role. If the ball is pure lead, it obturates more quickly and completely than does a ball made from some harder alloy. Better obturation = better accuracy.

So, if you're using an alloy, you'll need to use a greater powder charge to get the desired "flattening" and bore filling effect.

For maximum accuracy, you need to use heavy enough charges to at least have the ball obturate. If you're using an 8 bore and going after elephant, use about 250 grains of 2f behind a hardened ball. You'll have accuracy and plenty of penetration too.

High power rifles and pistols operate at higher pressure and actually do better with harder alloys. They also need alloys to reduce leading.

Some people don't really care because whatever scrap they can find is good enough. They'll probably use an old pair of jeans or the tail of their shirt for a patch too and be happy as a pig in mud. If accuracy isn't a concern, heck, use old steel ball bearings. The first muzzleloader that I made used firecrackers and marbles shot out of a piece of pipe.

So, if you understand the principles involved, you'll know what to do when you're ready to squeeze a little bit more accuracy out of your muzzleloader. You're going to have a great time. The more you experiment and make things with your own hands, the more fun you're going to have.
 
"1. It melts at a lower temperature than most other suitable metals"

Actually, lead/tin mixes melt at lower temps. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either.

If you ever try to load a tin alloy ball in a rifle, you see why pure lead is needed. The patch is actully pressed into the ball. You can see the fabric inprint when you pull one. For smoothbores, tin alloy is fine.
 
Right, Swampman, tin alloys do melt at a much lower temperature than some of the other metals within the alloy. Pewter, for example, a mixture of tin, antimony, and copper melts at around 400 to 600 degrees F. Copper, by itself, melts at around 2,000F.
 
Thanks,
That is just the type of info i was looking for. So for plinking and foolin around on a sunny afternoon, the scuba lead will be no harm, but for serious target shooting, or hunting, stick to the pure lead. That makes sense. as far as batteries or other sources of lead, I shy away. there are enough hazards just working with lead, I don't care to add any other exotic materials in there to make it even worse.
Thanks again
Friar
 
Would a wad or filler like hornats nest or even a thick patch compared to a thin patch have any effect on how much a ball obturates in the bore with a heavy charge?
 
Buckknife: Using a filler, or patch over the powder( Card wads, or fiber wads work, as do those made of felt) helps to seal the gases behind the ball. The added mass delays for a small fraction of a second the initial push of the gases, while pressure builds in the chamber. Then it all moves forward and gives that ball the " kick in the pants" he described. This obturates the ball, fills the grooves by pressing the patching firmly into the grooves, and spins the ball down the barrel. The fillers or wadding does not in themselves help to obturate the ball. YOu want a patch and ball combination that allows the patching to fill the grooves of the barrel. If you have shallow rifling, as I did on my first Spanish made import, then a thin patch and larger diameter ball will tend to give you the most accuracy. If you have deep cut rifling( .006-.008 ), then you will need to choose a patch that is thicker. Because fabric compresses, we tend to use a patch that is at least .015 to .020 thick to fill those deep grooves. Ball diameter is between .010 and .015 smaller than bore diameter.
 
Thanks for the reply Paul.What made me ask this question was i remember back a couple years ago i was shooting my 54 gpr capper on a very strong windy day with 18 pillow ticken,530 ball and 120 gr of goex 2f.Trying to see how heavy a charge i could go for a super thumpen hunten load.Usally did good with that load at 80gr of black.
Any ways it was bad,5 inch group at 50 yards,all though they were centered in the middle of the target :haha:
I then tryed the same load with a 10 patch on the powder and a 10 around the ball.It shot close to a clover leaf,maybe a inch inbetween em.Now this was with a stiif 20 to 25 mph wind coming from behind me kinda side ways a little.
I tried the same load with one 10 patch and it was not near as good and the patches had a few holes in em.
I also tried the 18 ticklen with a 10 patch on the powder.didnt do much better than the first group of 18s.
The gpr has .010 deep rifling,it may be what i really need is a .020 patch :haha:
Found i could get almost the same results using .015s the same way.A little better yet if i backed that load down to 100gr of 2f.
I remember seeing a hornats nest while hunting this year,think i will go get it this weekend maybe.
Guess im getting a little off the thread topic.
 
went to a scuba place and they have all exposed lead but it's not pure....don't know if it's this shop or what....he said to find out what ya guys are talking bout with the cased lead???..............bob
 
The patch seals the pressure and isolates the lead ball from making direct contact with the bore, but, the rifling still engraves the ball. Use a light plinking load and recover the ball, it will show the engraving.

FWIW, I also use cast wheeel weights for a lot of my informal rifle shooting, (almost exclusively in the smoothy for RB) but, for hunting I stay with softer lead.
 
TANSTAAFL said:
The patch seals the pressure and isolates the lead ball from making direct contact with the bore, but, the rifling still engraves the ball. Use a light plinking load and recover the ball, it will show the engraving.

FWIW, I also use cast wheeel weights for a lot of my informal rifle shooting, (almost exclusively in the smoothy for RB) but, for hunting I stay with softer lead.
Interesting...I just use nominal sized Hornady balls...440/.490/.530/.570's with .018" pillow ticking...I've recovered .440's from jugs of water and from deer and they didn't have a mark on them...I need to shoot some water jugs with the other calibers and see what they look like
 
buckknife said:
Would a wad or filler like hornets nest or even a thick patch compared to a thin patch have any effect on how much a ball obturates in the bore with a heavy charge?

The main thing that an over powder wad does is protect the patch from the hot nasty enviroment inside the barrel. An over powder wad may be necessary to keep the patch intact. My buddy who shoots an 8 bore with 250 grains of 2F uses a 1/2 inch fiber wad over the powder to keep the patches together. Most reasonable target loads don't require an over powder wad.
 
Back
Top