Is pure lead really necessary for muzzle loading balls or bullet in rifle or hand gun ?

[Edm]

What did people in the 1700s and 1800s do? Did they cast pure lead or harden it? Don’t imagine someone threw a hardness tester in their sack and measured out around a campfire...

 

[French Colonial]

What did people in the 1700s and 1800s do? Did they cast pure lead or harden it? Don’t imagine someone threw a hardness tester in their sack and measured out around a campfire...

In the 1700's the French were mining lead in the St Genevieve area and in large quantities.
Two things I am not sure of......
I do not believe it has tin or anything else in it when it comes from the ground.
Not sure if they are still mining lead in the area, andy52 may know the answer to this.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I've been trialing hardness myself just recently.
I've found 30:1 (sorry, I don't speak Brinell) to work well for everything.
Apart from PRB in .50 cal and Hollow based .58 ( both 1% tin) I use 30:1. 38/50 1:12 twist, 40/65 1:16 twist, .375 M/L 1:16 twist. .40 M/L 1:16, .45 Gibbs 1:18 twist.
The two cartridge rifles are Breach seated, I have used 20:1 with those but see no real improvement.
My 32/40 with Smokelss likes 20:1.
Now..... A friend I shoot with on Teusdays buys projectiles from a local manufacturer. They are hard.
My Lee tester struggled, I think they came out at 10:1. Those bullets did not expand when fired into hard clay behind our targets. Infact 3 out of 5 I dug up had actually broken. Way too brittle for hunting but they seem to be accurate in his Pedersoli 45/70 Sharps. I would think 20:1 would be maximum. ??
I'm told there have been hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by .22 ammunition Manufacturers over many years, and they have come to the conclusion that 30:1 is the perfect alloy combination. My local Club buys retrieved .22 lead from a Smallbore Club by the tens of kilograms. It Tests pretty much at 30:1. Life is easy.

Thanks much.
I'm too broken to hunt anymore so I just shoot paper and steel, spring to fall. I don't care if the bullet shatters to dust as long as it's consistent and I can hear the steel ring.
Say... you wouldn't know the composition of airgun pellets by any chance? I use a trap-target and I have collected almost half a 5gal bucket full of flat pellets. RWS Meisterkugeln, mostly.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Thanks much.
I'm too broken to hunt anymore so I just shoot paper and steel, spring to fall. I don't care if the bullet shatters to dust as long as it's consistent and I can hear the steel ring.
Say... you wouldn't know the composition of airgun pellets by any chance? I use a trap-target and I have collected almost half a 5gal bucket full of flat pellets. RWS

Meisterkugeln, mostly.

My mate in uk picks up a bucket or two air gun pellets for local club and mixed it with his lead. Not sure of composition but it works well

 

[waksupi]

I've been trialing hardness myself just recently.
I've found 30:1 (sorry, I don't speak Brinell) to work well for everything.
Apart from PRB in .50 cal and Hollow based .58 ( both 1% tin) I use 30:1. 38/50 1:12 twist, 40/65 1:16 twist, .375 M/L 1:16 twist. .40 M/L 1:16, .45 Gibbs 1:18 twist.
The two cartridge rifles are Breach seated, I have used 20:1 with those but see no real improvement.
My 32/40 with Smokelss likes 20:1.
Now..... A friend I shoot with on Teusdays buys projectiles from a local manufacturer. They are hard.
My Lee tester struggled, I think they came out at 10:1. Those bullets did not expand when fired into hard clay behind our targets. Infact 3 out of 5 I dug up had actually broken. Way too brittle for hunting but they seem to be accurate in his Pedersoli 45/70 Sharps. I would think 20:1 would be maximum. ??
I'm told there have been hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by .22 ammunition Manufacturers over many years, and they have come to the conclusion that 30:1 is the perfect alloy combination. My local Club buys retrieved .22 lead from a Smallbore Club by the tens of kilograms. It Tests pretty much at 30:1. Life is easy.

When you buy bullets from a commercial producer, they cast them harder than the hubs of hell to prevent shipping damage.

 

[M. De Land]

No hot mould o, but agree not nice , maybe crappy lead ???? just some experimental , I did the side with the ridges cut with a thread tap , I usually make moulds in brass , it was just an old Lee mould to mess around with always thinking outside the box , hell I am 80 still got my hair The .36 is from
A brass mould I made.

When you buy bullets from a commercial producer, they cast them harder than the hubs of hell to prevent shipping damage.

I know that's true of most commercial cast bullets but wonder if one can order lead/tin bullets ready to load for competition from Buffalo Arms.
Most of my shooting friends are heavy into casting their competition bullets of the various lead/tin mixes they order in ingots on line.

 

[SDSmlf]

wonder if one can order lead/tin bullets ready to load for competition from Buffalo Arms. Most of my shooting friends are heavy into casting their competition bullets of the various lead/tin mixes they order in ingots on line.

Maybe think outside the box and ask Buffalo Arms? Don’t know what caliber or alloy you are looking for, but I have a couple of boxes of ‘Buffalo Arms’ branded bullets made with 20:1 on a shelf somewhere, plus they list bullets made with alloys on their website. Many shooters seem to complain about the cost (~$0.50 +/- each) if they shoot a lot and choose to cast their own. Doesn’t take long for a casting setup investment to pay for itself.

 

[M. De Land]

I've been trialing hardness myself just recently.
I've found 30:1 (sorry, I don't speak Brinell) to work well for everything.
Apart from PRB in .50 cal and Hollow based .58 ( both 1% tin) I use 30:1. 38/50 1:12 twist, 40/65 1:16 twist, .375 M/L 1:16 twist. .40 M/L 1:16, .45 Gibbs 1:18 twist.
The two cartridge rifles are Breach seated, I have used 20:1 with those but see no real improvement.
My 32/40 with Smokelss likes 20:1.
Now..... A friend I shoot with on Teusdays buys projectiles from a local manufacturer. They are hard.
My Lee tester struggled, I think they came out at 10:1. Those bullets did not expand when fired into hard clay behind our targets. Infact 3 out of 5 I dug up had actually broken. Way too brittle for hunting but they seem to be accurate in his Pedersoli 45/70 Sharps. I would think 20:1 would be maximum. ??
I'm told there have been hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by .22 ammunition Manufacturers over many years, and they have come to the conclusion that 30:1 is the perfect alloy combination. My local Club buys retrieved .22 lead from a Smallbore Club by the tens of kilograms. It Tests pretty much at 30:1. Life is easy.

Try this with the Lee tester. Instead of using that funcky magnifier that comes with the kit use a set of calipers and an optivisor under good light. It will give you a very accurate dimple diameter read and then the chart will give the hardness number.
I use the same process to test comparative steel hardness with a simple spring loaded prick punch making the dimple. That's how I found out that some cocks and hammer are indeed hardened to some extent over mild steel.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

For cap and ball revolvers I use only pure lead so that there is no chance of damaging the loading lever. For Mini's I use pure lead so I know the skirt will expand. For patched round balls I have used everything from pure to slightly harder than clip on wheel weights with no issues in 55 years. Your mileage may vary .

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Thanks much.
I'm too broken to hunt anymore so I just shoot paper and steel, spring to fall. I don't care if the bullet shatters to dust as long as it's consistent and I can hear the steel ring.
Say... you wouldn't know the composition of airgun pellets by any chance? I use a trap-target and I have collected almost half a 5gal bucket full of flat pellets. RWS Meisterkugeln, mostly.

I don't have any RWS to test but do have some JSB Diablo pellets, Nielson slugs, and lead wire for my Corbin swage press that I can check with a LEE hardness tester if you like. They should all be as close to pure lead as possible, but I'd bet they vary.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

In the 1700's the French were mining lead in the St Genevieve area and in large quantities.
Two things I am not sure of......
I do not believe it has tin or anything else in it when it comes from the ground.
Not sure if they are still mining lead in the area, andy52 may know the answer to this.

Lead is often found with other metals, including zinc and silver.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I don't have any RWS to test but do have some JSB Diablo pellets, Nielson slugs, and lead wire for my Corbin swage press that I can check with a LEE hardness tester if you like. They should all be as close to pure lead as possible, but I'd bet they vary.

I was really only joking, but if it's no trouble, I think the Diablos. They're my second choice after RWS. I don't go about much in winter, so I go through a lot of pellets. Got about 5, 6 seasons in that bucket. Here's the airgun next to a 1891 Mauser. I took the photo to explain something to my boy, who also has a 1891, like for scale.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

I was really only joking, but if it's no trouble, I think the Diablos. They're my second choice after RWS. I don't go about much in winter, so I go through a lot of pellets. Got about 5, 6 seasons in that bucket. Here's the airgun next to a 1891 Mauser. I took the photo to explain something to my boy, who also has a 1891, like for scale.

It's no trouble and something I need to know. Been thinking about ordering slug blank molds rather than using the lead wire. Been baulking at the price though. With tax and shipping north of 500 smackers these days unless I can find the diameter I need used. Then still not cheap.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

To be honest, I haven't experimented much with casting apart from balls, and some hard wadcutters for plinking. I anticipate learning more, and that's why I marked this discussion. I'll be casting for the new barrel and that'll require a bit tighter tolerances.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Okay. This has confirmed the need for a better hardness tester. The Nielson slugs tested, a .457 and .251 both tested .083. That just off the scale for the LEE but should put them around 7 BHN. The JSB pellets and the Corbin lead wire for the swage dies are both untestable on the LEE. Definitely pure lead. Made an indent larger than the scale in the diopter.

 

[akroguy]

A thread that addresses using pure lead as opposed to using harder wheel weight lead in black powder firearms.

Finally!

I was afraid it would never happen.

sarcasm meter just hit 11 here. Anyone else?

Well played.

 

[M. De Land]

For cap and ball revolvers I use only pure lead so that there is no chance of damaging the loading lever. For Mini's I use pure lead so I know the skirt will expand. For patched round balls I have used everything from pure to slightly harder than clip on wheel weights with no issues in 55 years. Your mileage may vary .

I think that is probably wise using as close to pure lead as one can find in these reproduction revolvers that all come with undersized chamber mouths in relation to the groove diameter of the bores. It also makes sense in Minie ball skirt expansion.
My question in this thread is centered around the safe use of harder alloys many of us have acquired and want to use and how to get accuracy from it .
I think it also a determinate in wither or not it makes sense to ream chamber mouths in cylinders to groove diameter.
I don't think it necessary if only pure lead is used but advantageous with harder alloy that does not bump up to seal the bore as readily.
Minie ball skirts may not care and work equally well with hard alloy but I have not tested this to find out for sure.

 

[M. De Land]

sarcasm meter just hit 11 here. Anyone else?

Well played.

Stretch and Yawn is the correct response !