Pushing For More Reasonable Hunting Regulations?

[Jay Templin]

Well, actually they are correct. An inline is can be loaded that way, however it is still a muzzleloader.

If you load the powder from the breech, it is NOT a muzzleloader. I don’t care what ridiculous justifications they come up with.
Jay

 

[Sc0-]

Sounds like a brass version of the "Firestick" which is classified as still being a muzzleloader.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Here in Virginia, our latest crop of laws includes one that redefined the definition of “muzzleloading firearm.” Now, according to the intellectual giants in Richmond, if you load the propellant from the breech but the projectile from the muzzle, it’s still a “muzzleloader.” I have half a mind to take one of my all-brass 20 gauge shells, load it blank, and push a patched .60 down on top of it in my break-action unmentionable.
Jay

Look up Harry Pope's centerfire muzzle loader rifles. Guaranteed capable of ten shot inch groups at 200 yds. Of course they used false muzzles and special nose pour bullets. Those rifles were the offhand national match winners for several years. 110 years ago. What does it matter if the loose ball is shoved in the breech and then the powder like a sharps, or a case full of powder in the rear and a bullet down the front?

 

[ML48]

Look up Harry Pope's centerfire muzzle loader rifles. Guaranteed capable of ten shot inch groups at 200 yds. Of course they used false muzzles and special nose pour bullets. Those rifles were the offhand national match winners for several years. 110 years ago. What does it matter if the loose ball is shoved in the breech and then the powder like a sharps, or a case full of powder in the rear and a bullet down the front?

Definitely agreed. It doesn't matter....still a muzzleloader.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Sounds like a brass version of the "Firestick" which is classified as still being a muzzleloader.

That stupid firestick is not legal in PA. Pa requires loose powder in the breach if it can be loaded from the breech.

 

[ML48]

That stupid firestick is not legal in PA. Pa requires loose powder in the breach if it can be loaded from the breech.

The firestick is actually an excellent shooting muzzleloader. It just isn't a traditional.

 

[stephenprops1]

Here in Pennsylvania, the problem is that the rule makers don't know crap about the evolution of firearms, especially about muzzle loaders and neither do their advisors. They pass some ridiculous rules that make no sense and often ignore their own laws and regulations when advising the public. We have 2 special regulation (suburban) areas where rifles are illegal for deer. Yet some rifles are permitted as long as the bores are measured in shot gun gauge sizes, or the muzzle loaders. Muzzle loading rifles and smoothbores are legal for deer in these areas, but not muzzle loading pistols, even smooth bores. (Some folks have argued that a smooth bore flintlock pistol is a shotgun and the game commission still won't allow it, but has issued an advisory that when a 45 revolver is loaded with 410 shells it is a shotgun for purposes of the regulations.) The regulations for years clearly limited ignition of muzzle loaders to flint, percussion of primers. No wheel locks or match locks were permitted for deer. (Kit Ravenshear wrote articles about bagging PA whitetail with a matchlock, back when it was legal for "any muzzle loader" in the 1960's and early 1970's) About 1984, they rewrote the law and screwed things up royally. Then the Game Commission in it's ignorance really fouled things up. They passed a rule requiring open sights, yet in the booklet passed out with licenses, advised that any muzzle loader over 45 caliber was legal for deer and could have peep sights, but no scopes. Eventually the passed a regulation with great fan fare sayi8ng they were going to allow peep sights and they changed the "open sights" language. Three years later, they amended it back to requiring "open sights" but the advisory booklet said peep sights were legal. Muzzle loader for deer are also limited to 44 caliber and up and single barrel with single projectile ammunition. Then came the debate on whether a saboted 40 caliber pistol bullet fired out of a 45 caliber muzzle loader was legal. Muzzle loader Pistols must for deer must be 50 caliber and up, single barrel. Cap and Ball revolvers were legal for deer up to 1984 in the egular firearms season. The new rules said only muzzle loaders, shotguns and centerfire arms for deer. Previously, certain rim fire cartridges over 25 caliber were legal for deer. (a 41 Swiss Rim Fire about equals the ballistics of a 30-30) But a cap and ball revolver is not a shotgun or muzzle loader. It could only be used for deer if a centerfire. So for the years that I hunted with a cap and ball revolver, I carried a Remington cap tin that clearly indicated the No 11 percussion caps were "Center Fire" I was checked once by a Deputy Game Officer and he never questioned what kind of pistol it was. The Irony, is that in PA, ANY centerfire manually operated pistol or rifle is legal for deer. Even the 2 MM Kolibri cartridge with it's lowly 7 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

Some states limit firearms by ft/ibs energy. I heard that some go by minimum caliber (VA) I have heard of proposals to limit cartridges by case volume. Apparently an attempt to save such high power cartridges as the 220 Swift from the same fate as the 22 Hornet. Some have certain barrel lengths for muzzle loaders. At one time PA had a muzzle loader minimum 44 caliber propelled by at least 40 grains of powder and muzzle loaders for the special flint season had to be originals or replicas of pre 1800 firearms. But along came Thomson Center and others with their short barreled half stocks and the Commission dropped the pre1800 requirement like a hot rock. It also took a visit from Doc White to get in-lines approved for deer here. . However much I criticize my states Game Commission, we do have a three week flintlock only season starting the day after Christmas. for which I am truly grateful.

I think that sometimes they want to make the rules as confusing as possible to discourage people to give up hunting.

 

[Jay Templin]

The purpose of the muzzleloader season was to encourage hunting with the traditional guns. If people want to hunt with breechloading “muzzleloaders,” or piezoelectric ignition, or any of the rest of this newfangled junk, they can wait two bloody weeks.
AND GET OFF MY LAWN!

 

[arjay]

LOL what a rabbit hole ...

 

[ML48]

The purpose of the muzzleloader season was to encourage hunting with the traditional guns. If people want to hunt with breechloading “muzzleloaders,” or piezoelectric ignition, or any of the rest of this newfangled junk, they can wait two bloody weeks.
AND GET OFF MY LAWN!

Wrong again ole' buddy. They created a muzzleloader only season for any muzzleloading gun. If they would have created a strict season for only traditional, it would have been labeled so. ....period.

 

[Howard Pippin]

Montana has some fairly good restrictions on what constitutes a muzzleloader, and it pretty well eliminated inlines, No prepared paper cartridges, must be either percussion, flintlock, match lock, or wheellock, but it was kind of a moot point as they were only allowed in certain areas that were also archery or shotgun for hunting deer, there was no extra tags available for this, once you used your deer tag you were done, unless they had extra doe tags available. Generally, you can only have one buck tag. If you were to hunt in the general area with a muzzleloader, it didn't make any difference, Whether it was inline or not. This year they finally are going to open a muzzleloader season, but it opens two weeks after regular deer and elk season so it will be about 10 December when it does open and it could be very wintry at that time, which doesn't do old guys like me too much good. Being that this just happened this year, you can only use unfilled tags, so I think I might buy an extra doe tag in case I get a chance to hunt. I'm hoping next year that they will allow for an additional either sex tag, Either Whitetail or mule deer.
Squint

 

[ML48]

Montana has some fairly good restrictions on what constitutes a muzzleloader, and it pretty well eliminated inlines, No prepared paper cartridges, must be either percussion, flintlock, match lock, or wheellock, but it was kind of a moot point as they were only allowed in certain areas that were also archery or shotgun for hunting deer, there was no extra tags available for this, once you used your deer tag you were done, unless they had extra doe tags available. Generally, you can only have one buck tag. If you were to hunt in the general area with a muzzleloader, it didn't make any difference, Whether it was inline or not. This year they finally are going to open a muzzleloader season, but it opens two weeks after regular deer and elk season so it will be about 10 December when it does open and it could be very wintry at that time, which doesn't do old guys like me too much good. Being that this just happened this year, you can only use unfilled tags, so I think I might buy an extra doe tag in case I get a chance to hunt. I'm hoping next year that they will allow for an additional either sex tag, Either Whitetail or mule deer.
Squint

Sounds like you can still use an inline as it doesn't use a paper cartridge and us percussion. They sure are vague, huh?
Good fortune to you if you get to hunt....they have some nice big elk herds up there. Don't forget yur longjohns in December

 

[Scarface]

Montana has some fairly good restrictions on what constitutes a muzzleloader, and it pretty well eliminated inlines, No prepared paper cartridges, must be either percussion, flintlock, match lock, or wheellock, but it was kind of a moot point as they were only allowed in certain areas that were also archery or shotgun for hunting deer, there was no extra tags available for this, once you used your deer tag you were done, unless they had extra doe tags available. Generally, you can only have one buck tag. If you were to hunt in the general area with a muzzleloader, it didn't make any difference, Whether it was inline or not. This year they finally are going to open a muzzleloader season, but it opens two weeks after regular deer and elk season so it will be about 10 December when it does open and it could be very wintry at that time, which doesn't do old guys like me too much good. Being that this just happened this year, you can only use unfilled tags, so I think I might buy an extra doe tag in case I get a chance to hunt. I'm hoping next year that they will allow for an additional either sex tag, Either Whitetail or mule deer.
Squint

Wyoming doesn't have Muzzleloading season and it drives me nuts. You just have to hunt black powder during regular rifle season. I intend to try to get this changed after I speak to the State Muzzleloader Assoc. Probably won't get anywhere, but I'm going to try.

 

[ML48]

Wyoming doesn't have Muzzleloading season and it drives me nuts. You just have to hunt black powder during regular rifle season. I intend to try to get this changed after I speak to the State Muzzleloader Assoc. Probably won't get anywhere, but I'm going to try.

We have hunted many time during the regular rifle season with muzzleloaders. Didn't seem to make much of a difference, except it sure got a lot colder...

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

I think that sometimes they want to make the rules as confusing as possible to discourage people to give up hunting.

yes, between that and trying to force everyone to use expensive OP stuff (like OH and it's "straight walled cartridges" (most cartridges have been necked since 1875)) or by changing the rules like CO. and requiring a different gun all together than the year prior. It effectively makes it a rich-man's pursuit, if you want to deal wade through the BS to do it.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Montana has some fairly good restrictions on what constitutes a muzzleloader, and it pretty well eliminated inlines, No prepared paper cartridges, must be either percussion, flintlock, match lock, or wheellock, but it was kind of a moot point as they were only allowed in certain areas that were also archery or shotgun for hunting deer, there was no extra tags available for this, once you used your deer tag you were done, unless they had extra doe tags available. Generally, you can only have one buck tag. If you were to hunt in the general area with a muzzleloader, it didn't make any difference, Whether it was inline or not. This year they finally are going to open a muzzleloader season, but it opens two weeks after regular deer and elk season so it will be about 10 December when it does open and it could be very wintry at that time, which doesn't do old guys like me too much good. Being that this just happened this year, you can only use unfilled tags, so I think I might buy an extra doe tag in case I get a chance to hunt. I'm hoping next year that they will allow for an additional either sex tag, Either Whitetail or mule deer.
Squint

Sounds like the "old guard" of "Trad only, bro's" at work again... Inline flintlocks existed... Inline matchlocks existed... Inline percussion existed. the Hall Rifle (a US military rifle) was inline lol. Paper Cartridges were very popular, when they were available, and can be very accurate. So instead of my cartridges, I would have to PP my bullets or balls, and then have a plastic tube filled with my weighed charges... sounds legit... that'll add about 2 seconds to loading lol.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

LOL what a rabbit hole ...

Yah, This totally didn't go the way I'd hoped lol. Was kinda hoping people would either argue for the convoluted regulations, or for reforming them, and then explaining their logic. Mostly all we got was nonsense about how "round balls are better", "Trad only, bro", or stating what your state's regs say (not whether you agree or not, and more importantly, why) lol.

At least ML48 laid out his idea and why he thought it should be that way. (more or less: do what TX does... because individual freedom is actually a thing)

Jay's position of banning everything that doesn't fit his definition of "traditional" won't get too far with people, I think. Not only are inlines very popular, but the money in the process is undoubtedly in favor of maintaining them. Maybe as a way to get a "Heritage season" of some sort, the state sets a date (1869?) and says any ML's styled after those from before this date are good (must be able to provide evidence if asked)?

A ML is a firearm that loads it's projectile from the muzzle, by ensuring that it does that, we ensure that that arm will incur all the technological limitations of basically every other ML out there. Pelletized powder existed in in the 1870's, if not earlier, so I don't really care about that too much, even smokeless was being toyed with in the 70's (honestly, smokeless (or any of the BP subs, IMO) isn't really needed, but some people insist on using it... lookin at you BH209).

 

[ML48]

Yah, This totally didn't go the way I'd hoped lol. Was kinda hoping people would either argue for the convoluted regulations, or for reforming them, and then explaining their logic. Mostly all we got was nonsense about how "round balls are better", "Trad only, bro", or stating what your state's regs say (not whether you agree or not, and more importantly, why) lol.

At least ML48 laid out his idea and why he thought it should be that way. (more or less: do what TX does... because individual freedom is actually a thing)

Jay's position of banning everything that doesn't fit his definition of "traditional" won't get too far with people, I think. Not only are inlines very popular, but the money in the process is undoubtedly in favor of maintaining them. Maybe as a way to get a "Heritage season" of some sort, the state sets a date (1869?) and says any ML's styled after those from before this date are good (must be able to provide evidence if asked)?

A ML is a firearm that loads it's projectile from the muzzle, by ensuring that it does that, we ensure that that arm will incur all the technological limitations of basically every other ML out there. Pelletized powder existed in in the 1870's, if not earlier, so I don't really care about that too much, even smokeless was being toyed with in the 70's (honestly, smokeless (or any of the BP subs, IMO) isn't really needed, but some people insist on using it... lookin at you BH209).

"W" you did a great job of covering what you wanted. And I have to agree what you said made common sense.
1.) A muzzleloader is a muzzleloader, no matter what your feelings on in-lines.
2.) We don't need more gun regulations, we need common sense regulations....now that is a tough one.
3.) Not only do we need to reform gun regulations to make more sense, we need to reform those in charge!!! PERIOD
4.)

Common sense would dictate: standardize the regs.....but you know that ain't gonna happen.

Illinois: you can use a scope during muzzleloader season. There should be no problem with this anywhere, especially for folks with older failing eyes. That is about the only regulation in Illinois that makes sense. Other than that...Illinois is another gun hating state with regs up the ying yang!

Comirado: Muzzleloader season and archery season in one. No problem.
However, in order to use a scope, you have to jump through hoops, to prove you eyes require it.
Sabots are not allowed...why....no reason available.
In order to get more money from hunters, now you not only have to have a 'habitat stamp", you have to buy a fishing and small game license. Make sense? NO!
There's more but you get the gist of some of the most ridiculous regulations on the books.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Wrong again ole' buddy. They created a muzzleloader only season for any muzzleloading gun. If they would have created a strict season for only traditional, it would have been labeled so. ....period.

Actually, in Pennsylvania, for 50 years, the three week muzzle loader season was for flint ignition long guns of the style existing before 1800 or reproductions thereof. Not Any old muzzle loader gun. You want to hunt with an easy button gun there is a one week early antlerless season for guys who lack the self discipline to learn how to shoot a flintlock.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The firestick is actually an excellent shooting muzzleloader. It just isn't a traditional.

Excellent shooting? So were the circa 1900 Harry Pope Centerfire-muzzle loading target rifles they copied the idea from.