Pyrodex Cleaning issues?

[TFoley]

In my experience Pyrodex residue doesn’t seem to clean up with just water as easily blackpowder does. Pyrodex seems to get aggressive sooner than blackpowder if residue is left in the bore. But I have found if I add soap or solvent to the process and a little extra effort, Pyrodex residue will clean up just fine. If you have rust a day later, something, either powder residue or moisture was left in the bore.

Lots of good advice here, Zonie, that needs to be made into a sticky. I know of a shooter who as good as destroyed a near-mint Snider Volunteer rifle shooting a sub and not cleaning it properly.

 

[nkbj]

It was interesting to experiment with because the residue is easier to deal with in a repeater than black powder fouling. Ultimately I found it to be a high priced solution to a problem I didn't have.
And then one year some kin folk came to visit, their kids needed 4th of July entertainment and that cleaned up the pyrodex just fine.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Just a note that it seems everyone miss, when cleaning with water one should use boiling hot water with soup and also with clean fusing water

We are not missing the recommendation to use boiling hot water. What most of us have found out is that warm water with a bit of dish soap will easily remove black powder fouling (and the fouling from most substitute powders) quite effectively. Since so many of us use some oils a degreasing soap is needed to remove the fouling and burned grease or oils. A rinse with clean water will remove the last of the soap residue. While the heat of boiling water does help to dry the bore, the use of boiling water has also under some conditions led to flash rusting of the bore. If boiling water works for you, that's fine. I've found that boiling water for cleaning is not necessary.

The soup should be boiling, then allowed to cool to tase. Too greasy and salty to use as bore cleaner (Thanks Spell Check).

 

[user 34300]

Bill Knight (Mad Monk) is a leading expert on this subject. Reassemble the link to read about pyrodex.

ame
ricanlongrifle
s.org/foru
m/index.ph
p?topic=31
846.25

 

[Boomerang]

I have used both and both go bang out of a percussion gun, but I do prefer real black. I find that BP dissolves easier than pyrodex with water and for me, pyrodex produces a greasy substance when fired.

 

[charlesk]

Gunzilla is the best for a cleaning it will even remove bluing it’s pricy but worth the monies I wash my muzzle loaders with balistol after that boiling water and soap is also a very nice treatment for cleaning if there’s nothing else

 

[Okie Hog]

Bill Knight (Mad Monk) is a leading expert on this subject.

Methinks you posted this previously:


"I just dropped in to see what has been going on.
To answer your question.
Pyrodex uses 17 parts of Potassium Perchlorate as part of the oxidizer system. Powder combustion converts that potassium perchlorate into potassium chloride. Minute crystals scattered over the surfaces of the bore. Given the right range of relative humidity each of the tiny crystals becomes an electrolytic corrosion cell on the surface of the metal. This "micro-pitting" happens very quickly. It makes the bore's surfaces look dull. Under magnification they are seen to be little pits in the metal. Most shooters who used, or use, Pyrodex find it necessary to frequently check the bore during storage. Once you get surface pitting of the metal it is difficult to insure no traces of the chloride have entered the porous metal in the pits.

This chloride pit corrosion was one of the driving forces behind the development of the 777 powder. It is free of any chlorides and will not pit corrode the bore. When the in-line crowd went to plastic sabot carrying pistol bullets the minute crystals of chloride left by Pyrodex made reloading without cleaning difficult at best. So getting rid of the potassium perchlorate became a must in the 777 development project. While the 777 is a bit more difficult to ignite, compared to Pyrode, it is a far better powder. More powerful and very clean burning. Being more powerful you can use less of it in a load. It's post combustion residue, as with black powder, may cause light surface rusting it will not pit corrode the bore.

The bolded part was wrong then and it's wrong now. With the exception of Black Horn 209 all the black powder substitutes contain potassium perchlorate.

What ingredient do both black powder and Pyrodex have in common that could cause serious corrosion. It's the sulfur.

Look, i like Bill Knight but he's wrong on this one.

Before leaving the firing range i swab the bore with a patch wet with Windex with vinegar. It dissolves the crud which is a base. Sometimes it fizzes. At home i clean the bore with tap water.

 

[teakmtn]

Well now, a neighbor found out I shoot black powder guns and thought he'd give me an Italian made New Army revolver he had bought 20+ years ago. Seems like he took to the range loaded with Pyrodex took it home, never cleaned it, put back in the box and Bob's your uncle. I found this thread to see how I should go about cleaning it or even if it's salvageable. Seems like it was a nice pistol at one time. If possible, I'd like to attempt to at least make it a wall hanger. What should I soak it in? Carb cleaner?Just soap and water? What say you? Thanks for any advice. Doug T

 

[wb78963]

Doug, I would suggest soaking it in warm water first to hopefully dissolve the residue. Scrub the bore with a wire brush and go from there with a soak in penetrating oil. I doubt it will be a shooter, but it may make a wall hanger.
Damage to the bore and chambers most likely is irreversible and for sure the cones are rusted n place but it is worth a try.
Bunk

 

[Kansas Jake]

Does the action even work and the cylinder turn. If they do, then it may clean up enough to shoot. It may not be very accurate, but still shoot. I have a Euroarms Rogers & Spencer with a barrel that looks worse than the inside of a galvanized water pipe. It still shoots and is somewhat accurate to 25 yards. It is no tack driver but still fun to shoot occasionally.

The R & S was a gun show acquisition that was bought cheap enough to take the chance.

 

[Howard Pippin]

I'm fond of M.A.P,
Equal parts Murphy's oil soap, alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide.
I like things I can make myself.

Having purchased a new percussion 50 x 1 in 48 early this spring, I have been determined to make it work with 777, due to the difficulty of buying black in my area. After much testing, MAP seem to provide the best groups and cleaning was not an issue. Generally I coat the bore with some lubricant, started using kerosene, following cleaning and rust hasn't been an issue. Hot water was my main cleaner. Along with number 13 cleaning patches.
Two weeks ago, did my usual, lubricated the bore with three in one oil, checked the next day, and put it away. Last week, took it out to the range, ran the cleaner patch before firing down the bore, and it came out red. It even seemed to push hard. Hoping it was surface rust I loaded and shot about 15 times before going home to clean. Observe the same precautions, the same routine, only I used kerosene to lightly lubricate the bore before putting away. I store them, barrel down, on an open shelf, in my reloading room. Checked the bore two days ago, it was plum clear. Mysterious things seem to be a part of my life.
Squint

 

[Tinhorn]

So I talked with Doc, who studied Chemistry. He said the best thing to neutralize acid in a BP gun (of which we both have several) was Windex with Ammonia-D. So, what's Ammonia D? It's de-stinkyfied ammonia, so you won't cry yer eyes out. Anyway, I buy the cheap stuff at the store, and add about 1/4 or 1/3 cup to a quart of boiling water, and clean the rifle or pistol. This Ammonia really kills the acid, Right Now. It's all I've used for 10 years, since I ruined a barrel with Pyrodex with water and WD40 cleanup. My cleaning knowledge wasn't vast, but it was certainly half-vast......Tinhorn

 

[wb78963]

The residue of black powder and especially the perchlorate containing substitutes is NOT soluble in any petroleum product that I know of. Warm water and a little soap will do the best job of dissolving the salty residue.
Potassium Perchlorate breaks down in the reaction of firing to potassium chloride which is a closely related to common table salt. After washing the barrel clean, dry it and then give a light coat of rust protectant oil.
I would suggest looking at this information from the Cowboy Action City Forum.

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=56362.0
There is no ax to grind here just simple chemistry and facts.

I am very opposed to the substitutes. My opinion ( and every one has one) is Pyrodex or 777 is a Black powder substitute equivalent to Tennessee hill country moonshine aged in the jug as a substitute for 20 year old single barrel Scotch Whiskey.
I do occasionally use Black MZ which is a totally different chemistry and will work in percussion guns, but not flintlocks.
The residue of Black MZ is very much like that of real Black Gun Powder no more or no less corrosive and no harder to clean and has the same restriction as Pyrodex, 777 or nitro propellants.
Or move to Texas and shoot the real thing.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk Stagner

 

[Howard Pippin]

The residue of black powder and especially the perchlorate containing substitutes is NOT soluble in any petroleum product that I know of. Warm water and a little soap will do the best job of dissolving the salty residue.
Potassium Perchlorate breaks down in the reaction of firing to potassium chloride which is a closely related to common table salt. After washing the barrel clean, dry it and then give a light coat of rust protectant oil.
I would suggest looking at this information from the Cowboy Action City Forum.

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=56362.0
There is no ax to grind here just simple chemistry and facts.

I am very opposed to the substitutes. My opinion ( and every one has one) is Pyrodex or 777 is a Black powder substitute equivalent to Tennessee hill country moonshine aged in the jug as a substitute for 20 year old single barrel Scotch Whiskey.
I do occasionally use Black MZ which is a totally different chemistry and will work in percussion guns, but not flintlocks.
The residue of Black MZ is very much like that of real Black Gun Powder no more or no less corrosive and no harder to clean and has the same restriction as Pyrodex, 777 or nitro propellants.
Or move to Texas and shoot the real thing.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk Stagner

Like a lot of things in this day and age, the best is not always the best. With a little more layout of money, black is available, is just how much of your personal fortune you want to invest in a part-time hobby. The question is not whether black is better, the question is, will the substitutes, which have been around for at least 40 years, work if used properly. There is some advantages to using them, along with the disadvantages. The suggestion to move to Texas is well taken, but no thank you, Montana ain't the best, and I can see the end of the world from here, but I don't have hurricanes or tornadoes. If I was really into this as a full-time job, rather than a part-time hobby, I would try making my own black along with my own caps. Or I might even shoot entirely Flintlock and make my own flints. From some of those that post on here, I have a feeling that this is being done, just because you can do it.
Squint

 

[dave951]

Well this is just an ancedotal story but I personally know the owner of the gun.

Back in the 70s, you could get some decent "kit" pistols that needed little to finish to acceptable shootable condition. This person bought an 1858 Remington. Black powder was harder to get than Pyrodex later, and wanting to get trigger time, he shot the gun with Pyrodex for a number of years. He always completely disassembled the gun for cleaning in hot soapy water (not boiling, but able to put yer mitts in it), followed by a thorough drying and oiling. After the last time he shot it, it was cleaned as he had been doing for years, oiled and put aside in the safe. About ten years later, the outside looked like the day it went into the safe, the bore looked like a sewer. I have one that has only seen real black that was cleaned and set aside for a while and it looks like the day I last cleaned it. Coincidence? I think not.

No Pyrodex for me and my guns. Although, after reading about the cyanide in the smoke from Pyrodex, I decided to try it for mole removal in the yard. I put an amount of Pyrodex into each mole hole I could find, applied some fuse and watched the excitement. Smoke came up from several places on the lawn. Haven't seen a mole in months.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Dave951, I built one of those Navy Arms 1858 kits back about the same time you mention. I have shot a mix of both black and Pyrodex over the years and other than normal wear and tear from many years of use the bore is still very good. It does have some erosion on the cylinder pin from all the shots fired but otherwise is still in good shape. There are so many variables with these guns, it is hard to pin down what happened in one particular situation. I mostly shoot black now, but occasionally burn some Pyrodex because I have it and am too cheap to throw it away.

 

[user 34300]

So I talked with Doc, who studied Chemistry. He said the best thing to neutralize acid in a BP gun (of which we both have several) was Windex with Ammonia-D. So, what's Ammonia D? It's de-stinkyfied ammonia, so you won't cry yer eyes out. Anyway, I buy the cheap stuff at the store, and add about 1/4 or 1/3 cup to a quart of boiling water, and clean the rifle or pistol. This Ammonia really kills the acid, Right Now. It's all I've used for 10 years, since I ruined a barrel with Pyrodex with water and WD40 cleanup. My cleaning knowledge wasn't vast, but it was certainly half-vast......Tinhorn

Not sure what "acid" is being refered to. Black powder residue is corrosive because of salts that attract water, not acid. The Windex product recommended is the type that has vinegar. The type with ammonia is emphatically not recommend. This is a Mike Venturino thing that he published and it got around.

My experience is that any windex product works fine as does water.

 

[Dashing Leper]

Sulfuric acid is formed when sulfur is dissolved by water. Any free sulfur present in blackpowder residue will pick up moisture from the air and there's your acid attack.

 

[Tinhorn]

I go with Doc, he's the one with the 4.0GPA in Chemistry. Windex with Ammonia for Goex cleanup with this grumpy old man. BTW, Docs' hobbies are gunsmithing and watchmaking..... He also sewed me up on occasion in 1st Marines. Tinhorn

 

[lenl349]

read all the comments. Is there a big advantage to using Pyrodex?