I am getting a bit concerned about the availability of black powder in the future and i was wondering if it would be possible to shoot pyrodex in my gpr flinter if i poured 5-10gr. black powder down the barrel first and then loaded with about 70-80gr. ffg.has anyone of you ever tried this and how were the results and accuracy? by the way you guys are always a HUGE help and i appreciate it.
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pyrodex in flinter
- Thread starter beartrap
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Proceed with caution. It's know as a "duplex" load and is warned against on the Goex can. It has been done, but you should not try anything near a heavy or maximum load when doing this. The pressure may be wildly different than either powder alone. There is nothing like crushed primers or case ringing, like there is on cartridge arms, to forewarn you of high pressures before problems occur.
I can't give you any tips as I've never tried it.
I can't give you any tips as I've never tried it.
I've heard two opinions on this. Some folks say never use duplex loads, for safety reasons. Others say it can be done as long as you use just enough BP - 4 or 5 gr - to ignite the Pyrodex. I believe some manufacturers recommend this if you're going to use Pyrodex in their flinters.
So I guess it's up to you. As for me, I wouldn't use duplex loads. But maybe I'm just overly cautious.
If you're interested in using a BP substitute in your Lyman flinter, you may want to try some Triple 7. I've heard through the grapevine (not the most reliable source) that Austin & Halleck tested it in their Mountain Rifle flinter without ignition problems. Best to check into this further before committing yourself, though.
(Geez, this post wins the 'definite maybe' sweepstakes. Sorry for being on both sides of the issue).
You're right to be concerned about the availability of BP. I know I am. That's why I only have one flinter among my MLs.
:m2c:
So I guess it's up to you. As for me, I wouldn't use duplex loads. But maybe I'm just overly cautious.
If you're interested in using a BP substitute in your Lyman flinter, you may want to try some Triple 7. I've heard through the grapevine (not the most reliable source) that Austin & Halleck tested it in their Mountain Rifle flinter without ignition problems. Best to check into this further before committing yourself, though.
(Geez, this post wins the 'definite maybe' sweepstakes. Sorry for being on both sides of the issue).
You're right to be concerned about the availability of BP. I know I am. That's why I only have one flinter among my MLs.
:m2c:
Old Charlie
45 Cal.
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I tried 777 in my GPR flinter and it would not work.
Old Charlie
Old Charlie
Pyrodex won't hurt anything, it is just near nuff impossible to get it to ignite in a flintlock. That is why Pyrodex is easier to find and buy. It is more stable and safer in general to ship/store than blackpowder.
A flintlock needs a powder that will ignite with a tiny spark and the least provication. That's why it is a Class III Explosive and the extra shipping fees apply.
Some flintlocks are now being made that will shoot Pyrodex pellets, though I am not sure what the priming must be.
I have personally tried Goex BP and Pyrodex both ways...as a so called "duplex" load, and as what I call a "layered" load.
After switching to Flintlocks and Goex, I had several lbs of Pyrodex RS still on the shelf and wanted to try and use it.
I tried Goex 3F and Pryordex RS in a 50%/50% mix...premeasured them into 35mm film canisters and shook them up to mix the powders together before I'd drive to the range...but found the powders would separate/settle out a little and I was never comfortable I was getting consistency from shot to shot so I quit doing the mixed duplex load approach;
Then I tried 20grns of Goex 3F down bore first, which essentially fills up the breech, followed by 60grns Pyrodex RS on top of it (what I call a "layered" load) and it works perfectly...consistent and accurate...and is fairly easy to do using premeasured amounts in separate 35mm film canisters.
However, after a couple of range trips fiddling with all that, I finally decided it was more trouble than it was worth, and ordered a case of Goex 3F...been using straight Goex ever since. (traded off the Pyrodex to a local friend)
If you can get yourself in a position to buy Goex by the case, it'll be delivered to your front door for $10/lb...and it doesn't go bad, etc...so once you start buying it by the case, you'll actually save a lot of money in the long run - www.jjpyrotechnics.com - in Moscow, PA, or any of several Goex master distributors across the country. (for a list go to www.Goex.com)
But, yes, the "layered" approach of a small Goex igniter charge followed by an appropriate charge of Pyrodex RS has worked perfectly for me in my flintlocks so it should for you as well.
(but you should really stock up some Goex while you can)
Will Bison
40 Cal.
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Duplexing works just fine from a safety point. Ten grs black under the Pyrodex is about right. It just boils down to one more step in the process. Subtract ten grs equivalent from the Pyrodex main charge and it should get you in the ball park.
Also check with:
McLeod's Blasting Supplies (GOEX Master Distributor)
4546 Lochside Drive
Victoria, BC, Canada V8X2E1
250-658-2535, Fax: 250-658-2056
There is another Master Distributor in Ontario but shipping would be higher. I don't know what quantity you are allowed to have in Canada but bulk purchase is the way to go for BP.
Also check with:
McLeod's Blasting Supplies (GOEX Master Distributor)
4546 Lochside Drive
Victoria, BC, Canada V8X2E1
250-658-2535, Fax: 250-658-2056
There is another Master Distributor in Ontario but shipping would be higher. I don't know what quantity you are allowed to have in Canada but bulk purchase is the way to go for BP.
Guest
Speak'n of "pellets" (and, have'n never personaly seen any myself), don't they have a "core" (or, sumpthin) made from blackpowder??
If so,.... what makes the pellets any safer to handle then blackpowder itself, and why ain't ther a "hazmat" on the pellets??
YMHS
rollingb
I used Pyrodex pellets back in the early 90's and they were made Pyrodex with some sort of an "ignitor" surface film painted on one end...I even think I recall reading it is some form of real BP but if so, it's apparently of such an insignificant amount as to not cause the pellets to be classified as BP is normally classified
Regarding 777, it will ignite in the pan, but I could not get it to set off the main charge. I think the sparks from the frizzen must have been hotter than the 777 pan charge. Tried it in a Dixie Tennesse and TC both, but would not work. When Pyrodex first came out they recommended the 10 grain "primer" BP charge under a -10 grain (by volume of course) main charge of Pyrodex. I agree with all that it is easier to use straight BP, but also understand many places where BP is difficult to get or store...
Regards,
Ivery
Regards,
Ivery
Oh, yeah, the pellets. Seems like I read somewhere that they are more like the model rocket motors, a mixture of propellent and igniter. Wish I could remember where I saw it...
I was shooting Goex Pinnacle in my flinter. It will go off. But I found the best results of ignition when I used a Goex 3f or 4f black powder primer pan. With real Goex Black powder as the prime it was not too bad.
As for pyrodex in the rifles that shoot pellets they advise to use black powder as the main prime again.
The one person I know that uses a PA Pellet flintlock will actually take the small priming flask and starting at the vent hole drag the priming charge back into the center of the pan with Goex. I asked him if he got a fuse effect and he said no. I never seen him shoot the rifle only saw it at his house and was asking him about it because I saw he had some pellets also.
As for pyrodex in the rifles that shoot pellets they advise to use black powder as the main prime again.
The one person I know that uses a PA Pellet flintlock will actually take the small priming flask and starting at the vent hole drag the priming charge back into the center of the pan with Goex. I asked him if he got a fuse effect and he said no. I never seen him shoot the rifle only saw it at his house and was asking him about it because I saw he had some pellets also.
I know i tried pyrodex in the bore and 4f Goex in the pan on my flnter with not much success. Once in a while it would go off, but not often. Don't know about Pinnacle since i have never used it.
The issue is really not one of what's used in the pan...the issue is the higher ignition temperature of BP substitute powder and when used as the main charge in a flintlock, there is simply not a large enough volume of flame to reach the charge of substitute powder for reliable main charge ignition.
BP substitues usually work OK most of the time in a percussion rifle, but even there they are not 100% reliable, hence the constant evolution of hotter and hotter ignition sources for BP substitute powder...#11 caps, then small rifle primers, then #209 shotgun primers, then .25cal blank cartridges, etc, etc.
The design point of a Flintlock's ignition technology is based upon the assumption that real blackpowder will be used, sitting just inside the touch hole, and so the pan flash is completely sufficient and reliable for that assumption...any other powder with a higher ignition temperature is a roll of the dice, and nothing I would want in my one of my flintlocks as I settled the sights on a nice buck...or even a nice gray squirrel
round ball is
SO RIGHT
I could never get my flinter to go BANG with out a delay when I was using pyrodex.
Goex solved that problem and now I am using it in my cap and ball revolvers and percussion weapons as well.
The real stuff just works better.
SO RIGHT
I could never get my flinter to go BANG with out a delay when I was using pyrodex.
Goex solved that problem and now I am using it in my cap and ball revolvers and percussion weapons as well.
The real stuff just works better.
I never tried Pyrodex RS in the bore and Goex in the pan. I did play some with Pinnacle because they claimed it will work in a flintlock. Well... it will work. But I was not pleased with the results or the ignition time. There was a nasty delay in all the tests I ran. I was able to ignite it, but the sound of the ignition time using Pinnacle is so different from using Black Powder. I really do not know how else to describe the difference.
Same here...I used Pyrodex RS for years and it worked well in sidelock percussions, got a lot of enjoyment out of it, etc, but when I switched to flintlocks and Goex, I was shocked at how fast, clean, and accurate Goex was, and I immediately rezeroed all my percussions to Goex too...every shot is the same...instantaneous, consistent...outstanding stuff.
It's incredible how much marketing hype is put out about the BP substitues being clean, easy to clean up after, etc...implying vast improvements over real blackpowder.
IMO, it doesn't matter if you shoot BP or BP subs, you have to THOROUGHLY clean up afterward or you'll pay in the end...the hype about running a patch through a bore at the kitchen table while wearing a tuxedo is just that...hype...I'm embarrassed that I didn't see through it at the outset and start using real blackpowder 15 years ago...trying to make up for it now though...went through a pound of Goex 3F over Friday, Saturday, and yesterday
:redthumb:
