Emet Huntsman
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Yep, being a lefty was so bad we even use the Latin word for "left" to denote anything bad -- "sinister."
Just my 2-cents worth
Just my 2-cents worth
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Quality Military Replica
- Thread starter CharlesZ
- Start date
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I would pick a more specific time frame or choose rifle or smoothbore, this will narrow the field, either way a quality gun is going to take some research and homework, and there is a lot of good accurate source info right here as well, the two choices above may be influenced by historical preferences, type of usage expected, degree of historical correctness that you are comfortable with, good luck the answers and guns are out there, take your time and you will get it right the first time, this is probably the best advise anyone can heed to start with.
I'm familiar with the Brown Bess. If I were to look for a decent replica, could anyone recommend some starting points?
The Baker is also a great choice.
Again, American soldiers from the Revolution up to 1812-- was there an official arm for the US Army?
Pedersoli. Now I don't want to start anything but... a decent shooting replica or not worth the money?
The Baker is also a great choice.
Again, American soldiers from the Revolution up to 1812-- was there an official arm for the US Army?
Pedersoli. Now I don't want to start anything but... a decent shooting replica or not worth the money?
Maestro
Moderator
CharlesZ said:
Given the time frame, I think the Bess would probably be your best choice. Maybe not "the official arm", but a common military arm, for sure.
CharlesZ said:
The Pedersoli Bess is used extensively in the reenacting community. It's acceptable at BAR and CL events. Everyone I know that has one, finds it very reliable and is happy with it.
Just curious... you haven't mentioned (that I can recall) what your primary use will be for the gun... punching paper, hunting, reenacting...?
Ray-Vigo
Yankee
A smoothbore would offer a unique challenge and experience in paper target shooting since they have a more random shot placement than a rifle. From what I've seen though they do pretty decently at closer ranges. You might also be able to load it with shot for some clay pigeons too.
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There were many "official" arms for the US Army AFTER the Revolution. During the Revolution it was often a question of using whatever was available. George Neuman wrote a nice article in American Rifleman last fall about Dutch muskets used in the Revolution.
The best guide and overview to the weapons used by the US Army from the Revolution to the War of 1812 is Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and their Values. There are other, more specialized references of course, but that gives the widest scope that you're looking for.
Now of course, that guides you to originals. To find out what repros are available, you then have to browse the web and catalogues, and then ask questions about the specific model(s) that interest you. Decide on the specific era you want and then the model, or decide which model appeals to you the most, see if you can get it, and then take it from there as far as you want.
The best guide and overview to the weapons used by the US Army from the Revolution to the War of 1812 is Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and their Values. There are other, more specialized references of course, but that gives the widest scope that you're looking for.
Now of course, that guides you to originals. To find out what repros are available, you then have to browse the web and catalogues, and then ask questions about the specific model(s) that interest you. Decide on the specific era you want and then the model, or decide which model appeals to you the most, see if you can get it, and then take it from there as far as you want.
It's June, 1815 at a village in Belgium called Waterloo. As a British regular in Wellington's Army, the musket you hold in your hands is a ___.
Conversely, on the other side of that field, as a proud Frenchman in the Emperor's army, you are wielding a ___.
A year earlier, across the Atlantic, 1814, the US regulars fighting with Andy at New Orleans were using ____.
Does this narrow things a little better?
Conversely, on the other side of that field, as a proud Frenchman in the Emperor's army, you are wielding a ___.
A year earlier, across the Atlantic, 1814, the US regulars fighting with Andy at New Orleans were using ____.
Does this narrow things a little better?
Third Model Short Land (or "India") Pattern ("3rd Model Brown Bess").CharlesZ said:
1777 Charleville Musket.
U.S. Model 1795 musket.
Thanks Stumpkiller. Please indulge me just a little more.
Out of the 3 rifles mentioned, in your opinion,which one do you believe would serve me best (target shooting) as a first flintlock?
Could you recommend a manufacturer and/or builder for that particular gun.Many thanks.
Out of the 3 rifles mentioned, in your opinion,which one do you believe would serve me best (target shooting) as a first flintlock?
Could you recommend a manufacturer and/or builder for that particular gun.Many thanks.
None are rifles. They are all smoothbore muskets. Of the three the easiest to find would be the Bess in various forms and grades. Pedersoli makes a credible version and there are some Japanese made Besses in circulation that are pretty good. IMHO stay away from those currently made in India. Keep an eye on the used military flintlocks offerred on Track of the Wolf's website.
A fellow down the road shoots a modern made Charleville (he won Gold in the Olympics in Spain) and you would not know he lacks rifling or a rear sight.
A Bess is a blast to shoot and easy to load and clean. They have a huge, usually well sparking (if tempered properly) frizzen and can be very sure fire. It's a good first muzzleloader.
A fellow down the road shoots a modern made Charleville (he won Gold in the Olympics in Spain) and you would not know he lacks rifling or a rear sight.
A Bess is a blast to shoot and easy to load and clean. They have a huge, usually well sparking (if tempered properly) frizzen and can be very sure fire. It's a good first muzzleloader.
54ball
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With a patched ball, IMHO, a good group would be a pie plate sized group at 50-65 yards. Some claim and I have no reason to doubt them, that they can do that well at 100 yards.
My personal limit with a smooth bore is 50-65 yards. Mine shoot with my rifle to that range. At longer ranges (65 plus yards) I loose the front and only sight. So thats my limit. Some can do much better.
Now this is with a patched ball. The military load was a undersized ball with the paper cartridge rammed on top. It was very fast to load but could be wildly inaccurate. A British General in the late 18th Century stated " No man has been hit with a musket ball at 200 yards range by the man who was aiming at him."
My personal limit with a smooth bore is 50-65 yards. Mine shoot with my rifle to that range. At longer ranges (65 plus yards) I loose the front and only sight. So thats my limit. Some can do much better.
Now this is with a patched ball. The military load was a undersized ball with the paper cartridge rammed on top. It was very fast to load but could be wildly inaccurate. A British General in the late 18th Century stated " No man has been hit with a musket ball at 200 yards range by the man who was aiming at him."
54BALL has hit what most consider the average distance one would depend on a military smoothbore, a fusil or hunting gun (civy gun)of smaller bore with maybe a rear sight ( not always a deal breaker for more range) might extend the average acceptable range by 10 yds or so maybe more with some people, these are often more comfortable to shoot many being a lower grade example of the fowlers of the time, but you seem to be into the military mode so the guns mentioned earlier would be good choices.
The Miquelet Round is fired standing (offhand) with original or reproduction smoothbore muskets at 50 meters and the 10 ring is 50 mm (~3-1/8") out to the 6 ring of 400 mm (~15").
A good score is 90 to 94. That's a 4" +/- 10-shot group offhand at 54 yards! I know a man who shot a 97 in Spain! 10 shots in 3-1/4"! {Though, they fire 13 shots and count only the best 10 . . . still pretty impressive}. For us mortals a 6" or 8" five-shot group at 50 yards is pretty good shooting. Anything under 5" is outstanding.
Figure a deer's vitals hold a 10" circle pretty well so there you have the distance. I also noted my Bess tended to throw a knuckle ball that went a bit wild after 65 yards. That, or it was my abilities.
A good score is 90 to 94. That's a 4" +/- 10-shot group offhand at 54 yards! I know a man who shot a 97 in Spain! 10 shots in 3-1/4"! {Though, they fire 13 shots and count only the best 10 . . . still pretty impressive}. For us mortals a 6" or 8" five-shot group at 50 yards is pretty good shooting. Anything under 5" is outstanding.
Figure a deer's vitals hold a 10" circle pretty well so there you have the distance. I also noted my Bess tended to throw a knuckle ball that went a bit wild after 65 yards. That, or it was my abilities.
54ball
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Pedigree of American long arms....
1766 Charleville .69 caliber imported from France to support the Continental Army
1795 Springfield. A copy of the 66 Charleville. This pattern of course with modifications continued for 100 years. If you look close the crossed rifles on US Army patches are 1795 Springfield muskets.
1816 Springfield - Harpers Ferry updated version of 1795.
1842 Springfield/Harpers Ferry last smoothbore musket. Made new in Percussion.
US 1855 .58 caliber rifled musket with special lock allowing tape primers. The rifled musket in theory was supposed to do away with rifle Corps because now every one had a rifle that was as fast to load as a musket. All thanks to the Minnie Ball.
US 1861 Basically still made in the the Charleville stock pattern the tape primer from 1855 is done away with.
US 1863 updated 1861
US 1865 Springfield modified with trapdoor action.
rim fire
US 1866 updated version of crude 65 model rim fire
US 1873 1888 Springfield Trapdoor center fire 45/40 used through the Indian Wars and Spanish American War. It was the last of the Charleville linage. Kept in inventory until WWII
US Rifles
Riflemen as fighting units were a new concept in the eighteenth century. They were used as scouts and often deployed on the flanks. Their cup of tea was hit and run actions. The riflemen and their rifles were from the south and west. This was the era of the deerskin trade and also of indian warfare. They were pioneers in modern warfare.
Riflemen stood little chance on the battlefield when the action got close. Their slower loading rifles were no help against the faster loading musket and the bayonet in close combat. For this reason a light infantry squad was often deployed with or close too the riflemen for protection.
Riflemen were not an American invention on the battlefield. The Germanic states deployed riflemen in their armies. Like America, deer hunting and rifles were part of their culture as well. Actually it is the same culture. It was colonists of Germanic descent that had a great influence on what was to become the American Longrifle.
1740s-60s
As far as I know no American rifle is known to survive from before the mid 1760s. Daniel Boone's childhood rifle "1740s" was reported to be an English short rifle.
Revolution
The longrifle was used by elite rifle squads, militia and partisan fighters. Care had to be used in deployment of riflemen on the battle field as they were easily overran when the fighting got close. The riflemen used their hunting rifles.
1792 Contract
The US Army contracted with several gunsmiths to produce this contract rifle. Dickert was one such smith. Some see this as the rifle of the Lewis and Clark expedition of 1803.
US Model of 1800
It is not known for sure if this rifle actually existed. If so it was an early version of the half stocked 1803. Personally I believe it did exist and was in fact the expedition rifle.
US model 1803
A short beautiful half stock in .54 caliber believed for many years to be the Lewis and Clark rifle.
US 1814 common rifle
Charleville shaped but a rifle.
US 1841 Mississipi
The first production percussion rifle of the US military. In .54 It saw use in the mexican war and the later The War Between the States. Some were later bored to the .58 minnie. The 1841 was the last of the old line of US rifles. With the coming of the minnie the rifled musket Charleville line takes over.
Many lines of rifles have been omitted. Most were short lived experiments like the Hall or Civil War special purpose rifles like the Sharps, 1863 Zouaves, Spencers, Henrys, Maynards and Confederate types.
1766 Charleville .69 caliber imported from France to support the Continental Army
1795 Springfield. A copy of the 66 Charleville. This pattern of course with modifications continued for 100 years. If you look close the crossed rifles on US Army patches are 1795 Springfield muskets.
1816 Springfield - Harpers Ferry updated version of 1795.
1842 Springfield/Harpers Ferry last smoothbore musket. Made new in Percussion.
US 1855 .58 caliber rifled musket with special lock allowing tape primers. The rifled musket in theory was supposed to do away with rifle Corps because now every one had a rifle that was as fast to load as a musket. All thanks to the Minnie Ball.
US 1861 Basically still made in the the Charleville stock pattern the tape primer from 1855 is done away with.
US 1863 updated 1861
US 1865 Springfield modified with trapdoor action.
rim fire
US 1866 updated version of crude 65 model rim fire
US 1873 1888 Springfield Trapdoor center fire 45/40 used through the Indian Wars and Spanish American War. It was the last of the Charleville linage. Kept in inventory until WWII
US Rifles
Riflemen as fighting units were a new concept in the eighteenth century. They were used as scouts and often deployed on the flanks. Their cup of tea was hit and run actions. The riflemen and their rifles were from the south and west. This was the era of the deerskin trade and also of indian warfare. They were pioneers in modern warfare.
Riflemen stood little chance on the battlefield when the action got close. Their slower loading rifles were no help against the faster loading musket and the bayonet in close combat. For this reason a light infantry squad was often deployed with or close too the riflemen for protection.
Riflemen were not an American invention on the battlefield. The Germanic states deployed riflemen in their armies. Like America, deer hunting and rifles were part of their culture as well. Actually it is the same culture. It was colonists of Germanic descent that had a great influence on what was to become the American Longrifle.
1740s-60s
As far as I know no American rifle is known to survive from before the mid 1760s. Daniel Boone's childhood rifle "1740s" was reported to be an English short rifle.
Revolution
The longrifle was used by elite rifle squads, militia and partisan fighters. Care had to be used in deployment of riflemen on the battle field as they were easily overran when the fighting got close. The riflemen used their hunting rifles.
1792 Contract
The US Army contracted with several gunsmiths to produce this contract rifle. Dickert was one such smith. Some see this as the rifle of the Lewis and Clark expedition of 1803.
US Model of 1800
It is not known for sure if this rifle actually existed. If so it was an early version of the half stocked 1803. Personally I believe it did exist and was in fact the expedition rifle.
US model 1803
A short beautiful half stock in .54 caliber believed for many years to be the Lewis and Clark rifle.
US 1814 common rifle
Charleville shaped but a rifle.
US 1841 Mississipi
The first production percussion rifle of the US military. In .54 It saw use in the mexican war and the later The War Between the States. Some were later bored to the .58 minnie. The 1841 was the last of the old line of US rifles. With the coming of the minnie the rifled musket Charleville line takes over.
Many lines of rifles have been omitted. Most were short lived experiments like the Hall or Civil War special purpose rifles like the Sharps, 1863 Zouaves, Spencers, Henrys, Maynards and Confederate types.
Ray-Vigo
Yankee
You know what might work is a lefty fowler-- fowlers were pretty common guns for a very long time. You'd be bound to find fowlers during the 18th and early 19th centuries. I think a lefty fowler for a personal use during that period is more likely than a lefty Brown Bess (I doubt British discipline and standardization would allow much of that to go on). And as for use of a fowler-- I'm sure some of these minutemen in the various local militias during the Revolution and 1812 just grabbed their fowlers and went to battle with them.
