Quality Military Replica

[CharlesZ]

You would think that the Continental Army, under Washington, would realize the many benerfits of a standardized weapon for the infantry. The simple fact of standard size ammunition had to be addressed.
The Charleville makes sense being that the French were are allies. I will definitely check out that musket.

 

[CharlesZ]

Saw a special on the Alamo and wondered about the same scenarios being brought up here.
How could the 200 plus defenders, with longarms of all different types, defend against a massed attack of 10x their number? The simple act of loading the flintlock just couldn't produce the firepower necessary to repel an attacker of that size.
I can see where the 'rifleman' needed protection on the battlefield.

 

[54ball]

Washington had several problems especially early on. The Continental Army most always suffered from lack of powder, clothing, food, shelter, money and personnel. A great deal of the time the Continentals were happy with anything that would shoot. It was really after 1777 that the Continental line begins to be standardized with the arrival of French made uniforms and muskets.

The war stagnated in the north. Lord Howe was replaced by Clinton after the British evacuation of Philadelphia. Washington expected and planned for an epic decisive clash with Clinton at New York, that would never come.

The British turned their eyes to the South to break the stalemate. They hoped to recruit a Tory Army and sweep through the Carolinas into Virginia and wipe out Washington and The French from the south.

In 1780 under Cornwallis this plan almost succeeded. Savannah and Charleston were lost to the British and the Southern Continental Army was vanquished at Camden. All seemed to be lost. The British had had some success in recruiting the southern tories.

The war was to won not by a decisive mammoth battle with large columns of disciplined troops but by a small rag tag group of Indian fighters known as the Over the Mountain Men. This took place on a small hill in North Carolina known as Kings Mountain. Their weapon, the American Longrifle.

A young British Colonel by the name of Patrick Ferguson who had Washington in the sights of his namesake rifle at the Battle of Brandywine but did not fire because he was a "Magnificent Fellow" was now in command of Cornwallis's Tory left flank as it swept through South Carolina. As he swept through South Carolina, Patriot and suspected Patriot farms were burned and and scores hung. This is when one of the greatest missteps in history took place. Ferguson sent a proclamation to the Over the Mountain settlements that he would burn their homes and hang their leaders. The mountain men who lived in almost constant combat with the Cherokee took this as a declaration of war. Until now they had no interest in the fight. Armed with their longrifles and under commanders like John Sevier they crossed the mountains in pursuit of Ferguson and his tory force. Along the way the Overmoutainmen picked up elements of Georgia, South and North Carolina militia and partisan fighters. Ferguson thinking he had more time than he did saw Kings Mountain as defensible and decided to wait there for reinforcements. Kings Mountain was wooded. The terrain was perfect for riflemen as they had cover. The patriot force surrounded Freguson's position. In the hight of the battle Ferguson ordered bayonet charges. The Tories advanced down the mountain seemingly with success. As the infantry advanced down the mountain withering patriot fire from the flanks raked the Tories. They were wiped out. Ferguson trying to rally his troops or make an escape made a suicidal charge on horseback towards the advancing patriots as they crested the hill. He was brought down with at least seven rifle balls.

This destroyed Cornwallis's left flank in the Carolina's and set up the battle of Cowpens, Guilford Courthouse and Yorktown where Washington came down linked with General Greene and put Cornwallis under siege. With the arrival of the French Navy Cornwallis surrendered ending major British resistance.

General Clinton the supreme British commander after the war stated that We knew the war was lost after Kings Mountain.
If you can pick one arm that won the war of Independence It would be the American Longrifle.

The defenders of the Alamo did not sell their lives cheaply. Mexican casualties numbered in the hundreds possibly more than a thousand. The bodies of the Alamo defenders were burned. The burial details left by the Mexicans were overwhelmed and decided to dump the Mexican dead in the San Antonio River. Thus making the whole area uninhabitable for months as the bodies decayed.

 

[tg]

"If you can pick one arm that won the war of Independence It would be the American Longrifle"
Wow! I think most would see that as a pretty strong statement and few historians would follow that theory, many pages could be consumed debating the amount of influence the longrifle had in the outcome of the Rev War, I have been involved in several and none have ended with the above conclusion as the "reason" things worked out the way they did.Maybe another thread about the impact of the longrifle on the outcome of the Rev. War.is due.



Standardization of ammunition wasnot likely as tough as one would think ysing todays mindset, in the past a gun of a given caliber designation could have a bore size from.689-.732 and still be the same cal of gun likely made to use a ball of .650 in size but as the variances show many sizes would work particularly ifleaning to ward the smallish side of things.Not trying to diminish the effect of non-standard equipment just suggesting that the method of doing things at the time themselves helped to minimize the problem.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The rifle and riflemen attract a lot of attention for the Revolutionary War pariod (and even I take up that persona) but they were hardly a decisive force. Scattered and used mostly as scouts and counter-Indian fighters in the periphery of battles. In only a few instances did they engage front-line troops . . . and in many cases Washington had them disbanded and issued muskets to join the ranks of the regulars.

I follow Sellin's Riflemen who did punative raids on the Indians of NY under Gen. Sullivan and Col. Morgan and fought Torries and some rear-action battles until the Battle of Newton. Even then riflemen were mostly a harassing and/or denial force and needed musket infantry to maintain volley fire or they'd be over-run.

 

[CharlesZ]

I've been to Kings Mountain. Great place and story. The battle is parlayed as a 'civil war' because the combatants were all American, patriot vs tory. And then there's the 'Ferguson Rifle.'

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I've been to Kings Mountain. Great place and story. The battle is parlayed as a 'civil war' because the combatants were all American, patriot vs tory. And then there's the 'Ferguson Rifle.'

Has there ever been confirmation that any Ferguson Rifles were used at King's Mountain? I'm not aware of any....

 

[tg]

"Has there ever been confirmation that any Ferguson Rifles were used at King's Mountain? I'm not aware of any.... '

I have been in on some exchanges about Ferguson and his rifles on some other threads but do not recall anything about Kings Mt. but I may have just missed it, my education has suffered all my life as I have always been to poor to pay attention.

 

[Zonie]

Everything I've read indicated that Ferguson had used his rifles long before Kings Mountain and had been wounded.
While he was recuperating his group was disbanded and the Ferguson Rifles were removed from use.

By the time the Kings Mountain battle was fought the famous rifles were long gone.

IMO, if any battle represented the successful use of a rifle during that war it would be Kings Mountain, the British and Tories armed with Bess's and the Americans with backwoods longrifles.

 

[CharlesZ]

What firearm would be representative , in the Revolutionary War era, of an'American Longrifle?'

 

[paulvallandigham]

By the end of the war, most Continental Army soldiers were armed with French Charlesvilles- smoothbore muskets-- donated to the Colonies by our Alley, France( no friend to Great Britain).

Early in the war, many militia men were armed with Brown Besses, issued to them in the Early French and Indian War.Picking one gun over the other would be the beginning of a real argument.

Considering the war began on April 19, 1775, and didn't finish, technically until 1783, you have a lot of years to cover, and supplies of arms, powder, flints, and ball varied depending on the year discussed. By the end of the War, we had sources Here for Powder, in very limited supply, as well as sources for flints, and lead. In the early days, almost everything had to be imported.

Candidly, The Americans did not so much Win the war, as Great Britain lost it when it decided it could not afford to pay to continue the WAR. With France- its old enemy--formally allied and supporting the "rebels", it was simply too costly- in ships, men, and arms, to continue to send ships across the Atlantic to try to hold onto the colonies. Even with the victory at Yorktown, Va., The British continued to hold New York City, and Boston, until well after the Treaty of Paris was signed. And, colonial soldiers and sailors, held in prisoner of war "ships" in the harbors of those two cities continued to be starved, and allowed to die of disease until the British surrendered the Cities in late 1783. We Americans were far Kinder to those British Soldiers we captured. :hmm:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Everything I've read indicated that Ferguson had used his rifles long before Kings Mountain and had been wounded.
While he was recuperating his group was disbanded and the Ferguson Rifles were removed from use.

By the time the Kings Mountain battle was fought the famous rifles were long gone.

IMO, if any battle represented the successful use of a rifle during that war it would be Kings Mountain, the British and Tories armed with Bess's and the Americans with backwoods longrifles.

Zonie, I had heard the same about the Ferguson rifles. Also, we can't be certain the the Over the Mountain Men were armed exclusively with the rifle, though I would like to think so. A great part of the battle was fought up close and personal and the speed of rifle loading would have been a severe hindrance. They very likely loaded even rifles with out a patch to speed up the process effectively turning their rifles into smoothbores. This practice was carried on as long as the round ball rifle remained in military use when rapidity of loading was necessary.

 

[tg]

Schumway shows several rifles dated or thought to be made during the Rev War period, several schools had become recognizable by the late war years so I do not think that one particular rifle could be sorted out, probably a rifle with the general American longrifle traits of the time would be a good example maybe one of Becks, Dickerts, Haines or one of the other more well know makers of the period would be a good choice.

 

[Zonie]

While no particular style stands out as a rifle that could have been used during the War, certain characteristics should be looked for in choosing a rifle of this era.

The butt plate would have some curvature and it would be wide. The curvature would be much flatter than the later guns made even 15 years after the war's end. The butt of the rifle would also be rather wide and heavy looking.

The metal furniture and inlays (if any) would be brass.

A metal Patch box would be a very simple 2 piece affair consisting of the finial and a lid.
Engraving on metal parts was very simple if it was present.
Wood patch boxes would be common.

Screws, where used would be iron or steel. Never brass.

The trigger guard would be rather long with the grip rail standing off away from the wrist leaving a fair sized gap. The grip rail would be relatively straight.

German style locks would be more commonly found except perhaps in the far North and Deep Southern States.

The barrel would be swamped and at least 40 inches long.

The caliber would be around .50 or slightly larger.

Stock carving would be fairly simple and of the late Baroque style. Usually found behind the cheekpiece.

I'm sure there are things I missed but these are some of the more obvious ones.

 

[J.D.]

What firearm would be representative , in the Revolutionary War era, of an'American Longrifle?'

A few originals on the American Historic Services page might date from the AWI. Check out the Reading rifle, Womelsdorf-Reading, Freeborn, and Adam Haymaker rifles.
http://americanhistoricservices.com/html/reading.html

God bless

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I agree with this in large part. There is a temptation to overestimate the power of the rifles and the frontiersmen, because that's what appeals to us today. To someone living in a modern society or a city, etc. they would represent a romantic individualism and self-sufficiency. The temptation then is to make them into these great heroes, where a group of 14 riflemen defeated the entire British army, all while using only 10 shots each.

The fact is that muskets won wars. An army had to continue to take the field, and that meant massed fire power and formations pushing the enemy. A rifle might be lethal to killing enemy morale and commanders, but the real grunt-work of winning battles resided with the smoothbore war muskets and troops holding their positions in battle. Rifles made great auxiliary items, especially from Bemis Heights. Rifles thrived on the frontier in the indian style of fighting. But the war was won and lost by an army that continued to take the field and make things too costly for the British. To do this, you needed muskets and massed volleys.

Of course rifles helped a lot, but there is too much a tendency to romanticize it and over emphasize their utility.

If you had to have one "typical" arm of the Revolution, it would indeed be a Brown Bess. Both sides used them, and the style was copied heavily in the colonies to make cheaper, "militia" muskets. They were captured, bought, sold and bartered. Charleville is a good pick for an American troop later on in the war too, and is a little bit different gun.

 

[CharlesZ]

I've narrowed it to the Bess or Charleville. Debating whether to go mail-order or find a retailer. Like I said, this would be my first flinter and the hands on instruction from someone talking and demonstrating the gun right in front of me would be invaluable. Problem is, I'm in the NY metro area and most shops around here do not deal in anything BP. So anyone have a recommendation as to a place within 100 mi of NYC give a holler. Thanks.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I've had good luck with a book called the "Black Powder Handbook". It has a lot of good information for getting started-- it goes through shooting and cleaning the guns, as well as modifications, accoutrements, techniques, collecting and history. It doesn't go into extreme depth on any one item, but it gives a great working view of many things. It was through that book and this board that I assembled my current shooting kit complete with tools and accessories.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I haven't found any place in my region of NY that sells blackpowder. NY has made it prohibitively expensive for stores to sell real blackpowder. They basically have to construct a seperate bunker outside of their existing building for storage.

Gander Mt. in Scranton, PA told me they would be getting blackpowder in "in two weeks" for a year and a half before I finally just stopped asking.

I buy mine from www.powderinc.com

 

[Maestro]

I've narrowed it to the Bess or Charleville. Debating whether to go mail-order or find a retailer. Like I said, this would be my first flinter and the hands on instruction from someone talking and demonstrating the gun right in front of me would be invaluable. Problem is, I'm in the NY metro area and most shops around here do not deal in anything BP. So anyone have a recommendation as to a place within 100 mi of NYC give a holler. Thanks.

Well, it may be 110 miles or so... :wink: but you can come out here to Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop in the Kempton, PA area. Chuck usually has the Pedersoli Bess & Charlesvilles in stock (if those are what you've decided on). Just a little further is Cabela's store in Hamburg. I think you'd find it a pretty nice day trip. :hatsoff: