Question about ignition time?

Now keep in mind that I'm a relative new commer to flinters.
If you read my post on range results witht he Jeager .58 and Bucks .40 you've read that the "lock" time or the time from when the trigger was pulled to BooooM! was very short. I said I could hardly tell the difference between the flinters and cap guns.
I'm wondering about something I read a while back on another now defunct forum.
A guy (before I became a convert) claimed that his flinters were actually a tad faster than a cap gun. He went on the elaborate that the flint strikes the frizzen showering sparks into the pan that ignite and set off the main charge BEFORE the cock comes to a stop!
In other word the cock (hammer) is still in motion when the flash from the pan sets of the main charge.
I duuno. Could this be possible with a really good fast lock? :huh:

 

[musketman]

In other word the cock (hammer) is still in motion when the flash from the pan sets of the main charge.
I duuno. Could this be possible with a really good fast lock? :huh:

You bet its possible, as soon as the flint touches the frizzen, it begins to spark and the pan powder is exposed...

It only takes one of those thousands of sparks to set it off, so it could ignite well before the hammer has reached full travail...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Can O' Worms. :haha:

The flint strikes sparks off the frizzen, but they travel at the same speed as the hammer. Once they hit the prime it jumps through the vent very-much fast. I have no idea how fast a powder flash travels, but it seems pretty quick. :: Provided, you haven't over primed so it must burn through the vent like a fuse (the reason the vent hole should be centered slightly above the pan lip - so the flash can reach the vent over the powder).

The percussion cap flash is also making a 90

 

GOEX 2F, tested around 1978 burned at the rate of 1,080fps or speed of sound, that day. This is what I read before moving to Prince George, so that was prior to Feb. 1979.

 

[peter]

Which is faster? Guess it it depends on all the variables coming together. My '61 springfield is slower than my gpr, but yesterday I shot a newly built flinter that was faster than anything else I ever shot. You could argue theory all day but like anything else in life, what looks good on paper may not work out as planned. However, it does give us something to aim for. Now I have to find a way to borrow shop space so I can build a flinter of my own. Yeah, I got bit real hard yesterday when I shot Anna's latest flinter. My present flinter has about a coffee breaks length of lock time. Didn't realize how bad it was, maybe I can put in a new lock. Hmmmmm.........

 

[musketman]

Didn't realize how bad it was, maybe I can put in a new lock. Hmmmmm.........

It might just need a new main and frizzen spring, give it an overhaul so to speak... :m2c:

 

[Griz]

Funny you should ask that question. I have been wondering just how fast a flintlock is also, soooooo yesterday I had 18 shooters at my place for a day of :shootin: :bull:, and rifle's also :shocking: anyway, I took my video camera along so I could do a slow motion veiwing of some of the guys shootin' if I discover any good info and if I can remember where I posted this message :hmm: I will let you know what I saw on the tape.

 

This was thought long ago as well. I have read it in many period articles and smithing books.
The problem is its case by case and one with many if.
Something like a reliability issue IE. flint is just as reliable as a cap ignition If............. and ............
cap is more reliable then flint if.........and......

i tune my locks with care and I believe that in most cases they are just as fast as a cap , but not more .

With a cap lock the fire is channel direct to the main charge. Yes in some cases it must go 90 deg to get there but more gets there in that time.
With a flint lock 95% or more of that charge goes other places other then the main charge even though it still gets there .
It would be interesting to do a filmed timed test with good quality rifles and see just what the speeds are for sure.

 

[roundball]

I agree...and I really think that the time from "sear release to muzzle exit" is the real the bottom line in practical terms anyway :m2c:

 

[Ohio Joe]

I can only tell a slight difference between my large Siler Percussion's, and large Siler Flintlock's... The edge going to the percussions...

"Stumpy" speaks of saving the shot, I agree... Holding through with your shot is an all important technique that should be practiced by both percussion and flint shooter's alike...

When holding through the shot it should make little difference to the shooter what he or she is using that particular day on the range or out hunting...

With all this said I'll finish with; Just because I feel there's a slight difference in my ignition, that doesn't mean there is... I notice that with my flintlock's I concentrate more and therefore I may be more aware of the ignition of my flintlock's which leads me to believe there might be a slight difference??? :hmm:

 

[Griz]

Here's the story. My VCR has the slow motion set that I can watch each frame with delay between each frame. All of the pan and barrel ignition on every rifle was within 2 frames. There were quite a few shots made that the pan and barrel has fire in the same frame. I would dare to say that IMHO the hammer was not done dropping before the barrel was touched off. I can see all the bad response's comming already :: I was really impressed with the response time of the flint to barrel ignition. The only problem with the video was that it was all taken in the woods and most of the hammer's were really hard to see, also the flash kept the site of the hammer hidden. This is only my guess at what I saw and I am certainly not looking to aggatate anyone. eace: :m2c:

 

[musketman]

The percussion cap flash is also making a 90

 

[Stumpkiller]

Your're right. I should have typed: "99-44/100% of percussion guns require the priming blast to make a 90

 

Your're right. I should have typed: "99-44/100% of percussion guns require the priming blast to make a 90

 

[peter]

O.K., I guess there is only one way to solve this, we need to do a scientific type test. I will volunteer to perform tests, and keep records, etc.. All you guys have to do is send me 100 flinters and the same number of percusion guns, with plenty of powder and balls of course, and I'll devote this month to shooting all of them. Now I fully realize that this will be a huge burden for me , but I'll do it just because your such a good group of people!!!!

 

[musketman]

Hey Musketman! That's fer the ******* with a roundball avatar.
Which incidently was hilarious! :applause: :applause:
Go ahead and post that 'en somewhere's as it's just tooooooo good not to share your creative genius! :what:

 

[Griz]

Now that's funny and I don't care who you are! :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

Several years ago a test was done on this very issue in one of the muzzleloader magazines. It was before in-lines as we know them today so it's been a while. Anyway, the people that performed this series of tests used one of those thousands of frames per second cameras (I don't remember how many thousand frames per second....or the magazine it was printed in. I wish I did)and their results were that percussion was faster than flint 100% of the time. If I remember correctly sometimes not by much but still always faster. Those of us who have been around this game a while have had hang fires with cap locks that are as long or longer than those we've had with flinters. Obviously those instances can't be used as they are rare, if we do our part, and would skew the results. What's the old saying..."figures don't lie but liars figure". Anyone who would use such an instance would be intending to obfuscate the results. Anyway, hang fires and flashes in the pan are part of the game and I wouldn't want it any different.

By all means continue with the tests! One never knows what may turn up. Something may be discovered that you weren't even looking for or that was previously unknown. Such is the way of things.

Vic

 

I just came across an instance in "Firearms of The Amrican West" book, showing absolute trust in the man's issue flint musket.
: The military column was attacked, not by Indians, but by wild cattle of a long-horned variety - and not all were White as depicted on TV.
: Such was this Morman Battalion, led by Philip St. George Cooke on the San Pedro River, when Cooke ordered his men to (quote from records)"load their muskets to defend themselves. "one ran on a man, caught him in the thigh, and threw him lear over his body lengthwise: then charged on a team, ran it's head under the first mule and tore out the entrails of the one beyond....I was very near Corporal Frost, when an immense coal-black bull came charging at us, a hundred yards. Frost aimed his musket, flint lock, very deliberately, only fird hen the beast was within 6 paces; it fell headlong, almost at our feet".
; This was during the Mexican war. That would have been a bad time to have a flash-in-the-pan - no vent liners on those issue muskets to my knowledge & indeed, it might have been a very old gun at that.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Thank you, Daryl,,,

I enjoyed reading that post very much! I believe folks who use the flintlock now as they did then, have complete confidence in the ignition system, and they should...

When I was in the Army I had more misfires with 5.56 ammo then I've ever had with percussion or flint locks... That's been close to 30 years ago...

Sharps4590,,, I read that test you were speaking of in an '80's (?) issue of Muzzle Blast I believe??? It could have been in the '70's??? Anyway, I'm sure it was in Muzzle Blast...