Question about Loyalist Arms and Repairs

[TDM]

Interesting thread. Had never given them much thought.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

No gun comes with "proof Paperwork". Those that are proofed bear a proofmark stamped into the barrel. None of the Indian guns you buy anywhere, or for that matter a custom built in America, will be proofed. Judging from the posts made here over the years Loyalist seems to have the best rep & service. If I were to buy an Indian gun they are the one I would go to even though they may charge a little more.

I was looking at a short land bess and at the bottom was:
"Loading and proofing data available for all our muskets."
Here is the page link:
http://loyalistarms.freeservers.com/shortland2ndmodel.htmThis is what I was referring to. What am I misunderstanding?

 

[Rob M.]

Very interesting thread. Sorry , a little off topic ... I proofed one of my barrels the other day . Boy ! They make a he//uva boom ! .... Sounds like a cannon shot ! Sure would like to handle , tear apart one of these Loyalist guns . I've seen them from a distance but never gotten into one before . Sorry for the deviation ... Carry on !

 

[FlinterNick]

The choice to own an Indian made musket usually addresses one circumstance, costs. With the later being availability.

If you’re a reinactor hoping to have a usable musket that you could live fire, an Indian made musket would be appropriate, and a good choice, however for the reinactor that dives deep into the hobby and wants accurate reproductions and chooses to invest a lot of money into their muskets, i would buy too many of them personally.

As you learn more about the arms, accuracy and facts about each musket, you’ll be disappointed in what you have and end up spending more than you need to.

The Quality issue; Indian made muskets are not high quality, there’s argument to be had here about what a quality musket is. Indian muskets often fail because of poorly made locks. All parts are hand made, replacement parts need to be hand made. I only work on Indian made arms for my regiment. I’ve made mainsprings, resoled frizzens, added integral lugs to bridals because the internals were not steady, made sear springs etc welded and relocated parts. Costs are 25-100 per job. Locks are worth maybe 150-175, so you’ll end up paying the cost of labor and parts for a BMW for working on a Subaru.

Most of the issues I’ve seen on them are poor locks and stocks that are just not well seasoned teak or rosewood, some stocks i suspect are aged too long and crack at the wrist.

Just be wary of the monies invest in them, i wouldn’t go paying $150 for a new hand made mainspring or anything like that, as it will be a sunk cost when you part ways with the musket.

What i would not do !

Do not buy an Indian made musket with the intention of making it better quality, replacing the lock with an Italian or rifle shoppe lock, using casted parts from the rife shoppe or anywhere else will usually not end up working without some expensive customizations.

Do not restock them with pedersoli stocks, this will not work. Restocking them from a blank will run you upward near 800$, unless you find someone generous enough to do the work for gaining experience.

Do not replace the barrel on a long land with an american made barrel, american made barrels are much larger too large for the Indian made stocks. With teak and rosewood stocks, the more wood the better, it reinforces weak areas like the breech and forearm. Drilled area’s on the stocks are often chipped, cracked and split.

Teak stocks don’t finish well, it’s a closed grained wood. Stain often blotches and old need to be very thinned. What works well is steaming the stocks to open the grain and begin staining at around 120 and varnishing or oiling around 150/180. Do not burnish. Wet Sanding even painting on fast drying varnishes works best.

By the time you’ve upgraded your Indian made musket, you’re at the cost of an assembled pedersoli, miroku or rifle shoppe kit.

Keep your upgrades simple and stupid. Recolor and refinish the stock, tune the lock, a stamp or two here and there goes a long way with these Indian made arms.

With that said, i only recommend Loyalist arms they’re great people and will only sell muskets that are good enough to shoot.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I will keep that in mind. If Im not mistaken, the guns come with proof paperwork?

I don't know about that. I don't think any sellers test fire. Blair, at Loyalist Arms, doesn't. Unless he's changed his operation. I know for a fact that Charels at Vet. Arms or Peter at Middlesex Village does not. Of course, Heritage is unvented. Peter is so backlogged with orders; you won't see your musket for a year or more. OH, and by the way, don't listed to FlinterNick. He is so Anti-India-Gun he'll give you ED. Semper Fi.

 

[skwerleater]

From what I recall, the proof paperwork was an instructional on how to proof the musket.
Had and used a few different ones over the years. Heavy and the locks ranged from poor to absolute junk. Geometry was way off on them and the internals were soft and wore out very quickly. It’s been several years since, maybe quality has improved.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don't know about that. I don't think any sellers test fire. Blair, at Loyalist Arms, doesn't. Unless he's changed his operation. I know for a fact that Charels at Vet. Arms or Peter at Middlesex Village does not. Of course, Heritage is unvented. Peter is so backlogged with orders; you won't see your musket for a year or more. OH, and by the way, don't listed to FlinterNick. He is so Anti-India-Gun he'll give you ED. Semper Fi.

If you’re going to quote me by name then at least do it some integrity, but you’d rather refer someone to Pete the poor angry businessman fraud and tell folks to not listen to me.

At least I post pictures and demo’s of my work on Indian made arms, i back up my claims with substance, not hyperbole statements of dysfunction.

And btw, finishing your quote with Semper Fi doesn’t add integrity to you, after the 1,000 or so times you say it, it makes you look like a clown.

Huzzah

 

[FlinterNick]

From what I recall, the proof paperwork was an instructional on how to proof the musket.
Had and used a few different ones over the years. Heavy and the locks ranged from poor to absolute junk. Geometry was way off on them and the internals were soft and wore out very quickly. It’s been several years since, maybe quality has improved.

Yes the lock geometry is often terrible, the new ones do not improve much I’d argue the older Indian models from the 1980’s are much better.

I used to say that nothing could be worse than a Belgium reproduction, now they sell for a premium in good quality condition.

The locks are almost always soft, and the steel is alloy heavy mixture and low in carbon, case hardening is the best option for some, carburizing does very little. I did speak with a few Indian shops via FB and they state that they use recycled carbon steel from scrap yards, that could mean a lot of things.

The locks are always missing a bridal with a pin, so the internals are not stationary. I drill and weld a steel pin.

Frizzens rate from poor to sometimes good, I’ve resold them by TIG welding 1080 steel to the face.

I only do this work for friends in my regiment, i don’t work on Indian made locks generally.

Most of the gunsmiths that specialize in the area, such as Paul Ackerman, or Clay Smith will turn away Indian made arms, simply because they lose money working on them.

 

[FlinterNick]

I can not recommend purchasing from middlesex.

I’m an accountant by trade, the owner Pete sells products for which he has no inventory of, so you’re advancing him payment, this is a loan which he will not repay to you if the promise to provide product in good working order.

His also walks back on his warranties.

I have a friend in my regiment waiting three years now for a fowler, Pete offered a 50% refund with additional fees for cancelling the transaction, this is theft in its purest form.

BBB complaint report is long and attached.

Lol do not listen to colonialriflesmith and do not purchase from middlesex.

https://www.bbb.org/us/nh/charlesto...x-village-trading-co-0051-92037462/complaints

 

[James Dietz]

I use my Indian made 42 Springfield for reenacting purposes. (You can beat it up a bit and not get to upset!) Bought it from a friend and it seems pretty good. Doesn't mis-fire. For live firing I use my nicer Italian made and defarbed 42 Springfield. I have an Indian made long land pattern Brown bess that was just not too well put together but I did live fire it with no issues. Due to its looks I turned it into a bit of a monster, cutting down the barrel, shortening the fore stock and adding brass tacks so it kind of looks like a plains indian gun. I actually like it. Now I have a quality Long Land pattern brown bess as well. I do prefer American made customs and will be trying my hand at a Kibler this year. Luckily this forum is a wealth of knowledge for me to pull from!

 

[Sidney Smith]

If you're OK with owning sub par items, that's your right. I personally will never own anything made in India, as I don't think they can compete with better quality firearms, etc. that's my right.

 

[edw.marshall]

I owned a Heritage Arms long land pattern musket & after refinishing the stock & tuning the lock, it served me well through a number of years reenacting F&I. I proofed it using heavy powder charges & ball. I believe they overbuild these guns, so they safe. I sold it to another reenactor, who is still using it.

 

[wganz]

From what I recall, the proof paperwork was an instructional on how to proof the musket.
Had and used a few different ones over the years. Heavy and the locks ranged from poor to absolute junk. Geometry was way off on them and the internals were soft and wore out very quickly. It’s been several years since, maybe quality has improved.

Text on the required charge and procedure how to perform. Also included, is one ball plus a length of timed cord to light it.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

If you’re going to quote me by name then at least do it some integrity, but you’d rather refer someone to Pete the poor angry businessman fraud and tell folks to not listen to me.

At least I post pictures and demo’s of my work on Indian made arms, i back up my claims with substance, not hyperbole statements of dysfunction.

And btw, finishing your quote with Semper Fi doesn’t add integrity to you, after the 1,000 or so times you say it, it makes you look like a clown.

Huzzah

Gawd almighty! Why does just about every damn thread have to devolve into a name calling match between two or more persons. All I wanted was information on this topic, not to start a range war. Would everyone please put their guns away.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Yes the lock geometry is often terrible, the new ones do not improve much I’d argue the older Indian models from the 1980’s are much better.

I used to say that nothing could be worse than a Belgium reproduction, now they sell for a premium in good quality condition.

The locks are almost always soft, and the steel is alloy heavy mixture and low in carbon, case hardening is the best option for some, carburizing does very little. I did speak with a few Indian shops via FB and they state that they use recycled carbon steel from scrap yards, that could mean a lot of things.

The locks are always missing a bridal with a pin, so the internals are not stationary. I drill and weld a steel pin.

Frizzens rate from poor to sometimes good, I’ve resold them by TIG welding 1080 steel to the face.

I only do this work for friends in my regiment, i don’t work on Indian made locks generally.

Most of the gunsmiths that specialize in the area, such as Paul Ackerman, or Clay Smith will turn away Indian made arms, simply because they lose money working on them.

From what I am gathering on this thread, it is the same old story. Buy a higher quality anything and cry once. Buy poor and continue crying and paying. I appreciate all the information. It will go far in my decision making.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

.. I just wish people could discuss things on here with an open mind and to do so in at least a civil manner, even when agreeing to disagree ...

Let's seek to maintain a HIGH signal to noise ratio here folks!

 

[FlinterNick]

Gawd almighty! Why does just about every damn thread have to devolve into a name calling match between two or more persons. All I wanted was information on this topic, not to start a range war. Would everyone please put their guns away.

Well its pretty clear who fired the first shot.

 

[FlinterNick]

From what I am gathering on this thread, it is the same old story. Buy a higher quality anything and cry once. Buy poor and continue crying and paying. I appreciate all the information. It will go far in my decision making.

I would not spend a lot on one. I would ask for as much data and info as possible when buying one.

Pictures of the stock, lock inside and out, pictures of the breech area.

They come finished with some type of painted on varnish that is dyed to look like wood. Teak doesn’t stain well so they dye the varnish.

If you’re lucky enough to get a rosewood stock, that is well seasoned, you’ll have a stock that is just as good as a hard maple. But it’s too fresh or too old, or not dried right, they’re very brittle and hard to finish.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I love this place.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Well its pretty clear who fired the first shot.

Deleted by me.