Question about shooting round ball in smooth bore

[tenngun]

To me, it seems bare ball is the lazy man's solution. I prefer a patch, as it keeps the bore condition more consistent for long shooting sessions.

It’s the historic usage. We can go non historical in all sorts of ways to improve our guns, it’s all a choice.
We all cheat somewaybut it’s fun to try and stay historical or not

 

[wiscoaster]

... stay historical or not

I go both ways, and I don't see any problem with that.

 

[oreclan]

An over-powder wad of paper, wasp's nest, tow ,etc. plus an additional wad over the ball works well.

 

[Kentuckyjed]

Heard about just shooting the first or second shot with a patch then the barrel is fouled enough to add some grip to make the seal and fire away BAREBALL.

 

[sportster73hp]

Started reading this to school me on a new to me smoothbore. 16 gauge .662 bore , mold with gun was casting at .655. Bought overcards and buffer wads. Tried ball with .015 patch and had to beat it in. Now use a wet .010 patch. Two shooters hit the 100 yard gong/pipe and the third missed it. Think I will stick with patched ball.

 

[waksupi]

Started reading this to school me on a new to me smoothbore. 16 gauge .662 bore , mold with gun was casting at .655. Bought overcards and buffer wads. Tried ball with .015 patch and had to beat it in. Now use a wet .010 patch. Two shooters hit the 100 yard gong/pipe and the third missed it. Think I will stick with patched ball.

Smoothbores don't need to be patched tightly.

 

[Mwal]

My .62 prefers powder card or folded paper, tow greased with TOTW mink tallow .61 ball and tow to hold ball in. I never swab till done shooting.

Mwal

 

[Britsmoothy]

Who ever said a patch seals the bore is wrong.
It doesn't.
It simply, as the OP first said, transmits the rotational force to the ball from the rifling.
Gas can and does get past the patch.
It's woven nature and application means by default that it will not seal the bore.

Just develope a bare ball load for smoothbores.

 

[Banjoman]

Question: is it necessary to patch the ball when shooting a smooth bore muzzle-loading black powder firearm? Per my limited knowledge and experience, the main purpose of the patch is to grab the rifling and spin the ball. It seems this serves no purpose in a smooth bore. Am I still supposed to be using a patch with a round ball in a smooth bore gun? And if so, what purpose is it serving there? Thanks ....

You can talk to a dozen shooters and get a dozen different answers and each one will be the best. I’ll tell you my favorite method anyway in case you want to try it.

In a .62 caliber smooth bore, I load ~65 grains of 2f, a bare .600 round ball and topped off with a wad of jute tow, brown paper, leaves or whatever to hold it all in place. With this load, I can consistently hit a gallon milk jug at 25 yards. It’s just a simple method for simple plinking.

.02 cents

 

[waksupi]

Started reading this to school me on a new to me smoothbore. 16 gauge .662 bore , mold with gun was casting at .655. Bought overcards and buffer wads. Tried ball with .015 patch and had to beat it in. Now use a wet .010 patch. Two shooters hit the 100 yard gong/pipe and the third missed it. Think I will stick with patched ball.

Smothbores don't need tobe patched tightly.

You can talk to a dozen shooters and get a dozen different answers and each one will be the best. I’ll tell you my favorite method anyway in case you want to try it.

In a .62 caliber smooth bore, I load ~65 grains of 2f, a bare .600 round ball and topped off with a wad of jute tow, brown paper, leaves or whatever to hold it all in place. With this load, I can consistently hit a gallon milk jug at 25 yards. It’s just a simple method for simple plinking.

.02 cents

I fully expect to hit snuff can size targets or smaller at 25 yards with a patched ball.

 

[tenngun]

Started reading this to school me on a new to me smoothbore. 16 gauge .662 bore , mold with gun was casting at .655. Bought overcards and buffer wads. Tried ball with .015 patch and had to beat it in. Now use a wet .010 patch. Two shooters hit the 100 yard gong/pipe and the third missed it. Think I will stick with patched ball.

Smoothies are more forgiving than rifles. And rifles are pretty forgiving.
Historically God alone knows what was fed to smoothbores back in the day.
Felt lining from old saddles was said to be the best, so was brown paper rubbed soft
and folded.
Spanish moss, tow, grass, and coconut fiber was put service.
Testing today has found good groups with large powder charges and a wad just on top of the ball. One theory suggests hot gas around the ball helps keep the ball centered.
Maybe?
By early nineteenth century French and English Americans were patching a ball in Canada
Shooters in NSSA matches have to shoot ball and will get scores a rifleman could be proud of.
All things considered our ml are toys. If the zombies invade you’re going to want something a little more modern.
Play with your gun. You may find amazing things it can do
See how it shoots with military cartridge, try buck and ball, try buck,
I’ve feed my girls dog hair and cedar bark. Little ball wrapped in blanket ( an historic load)
Balls in bees wax without a wad. I’ve shot double but not something I would try again.
Don’t get set on one load, old timers were inventive

 

[smo]

Load that bar’ rifle with nails Pilgrim!

 

[Bill Bryan]

On the rare occasion that I shot round ball from my old 20 gauge Belgian side by side, I shoot a .600 cal round ball with a pillow ticking patch. It's a snug fit. I can hit a man sized(deer) target at 50 yards. I've never tried any farther. Bill

 

[GreyGus]

In military applications, prior to the invention of the minie ball, the military preferred smooth bores due to their faster rate of fire compared to a rifled musket. Military doctrine at the time called for firing by ranks, so volume of fire was more important than accuracy.
The rifle was more of a specialist weapon.

The introduction of the Minnie ball allowed a rifled musket to use an undersized bullet to speed loading time and the expanding skirt grabbed the rifling for accuracy, the best of both worlds. This gave the regular soldier a firearm that was accurate at much longer ranges. This longer range, combined with officers that were tied to pre minie ball tactics, lead to the horrendous causality rates in the American Civil War.

My understanding is that in military usage, smoothbores were used with pre made paper cartridges, so the only “wadding” was the cartridge paper itself. Their has been considerable discussion in this very informative thread about the need to use an over wad to hold an unpatched round ball in place. So my question is, in military usage, was the cartridge paper itself enough to hold the “naked” round ball in place?

 

[Britsmoothy]

In military applications, prior to the invention of the minie ball, the military preferred smooth bores due to their faster rate of fire compared to a rifled musket. Military doctrine at the time called for firing by ranks, so volume of fire was more important than accuracy.
The rifle was more of a specialist weapon.

The introduction of the Minnie ball allowed a rifled musket to use an undersized bullet to speed loading time and the expanding skirt grabbed the rifling for accuracy, the best of both worlds. This gave the regular soldier a firearm that was accurate at much longer ranges. This longer range, combined with officers that were tied to pre minie ball tactics, lead to the horrendous causality rates in the American Civil War.

My understanding is that in military usage, smoothbores were used with pre made paper cartridges, so the only “wadding” was the cartridge paper itself. Their has been considerable discussion in this very informative thread about the need to use an over wad to hold an unpatched round ball in place. So my question is, in military usage, was the cartridge paper itself enough to hold the “naked” round ball in place?

Well....err yes.

 

[Rob M.]

So there is no reference so far known that shows patching of round ball in a smoothbore in the 18th century. YET riflemen and patched ball were known both in the American Colonies, and in Germany.

There are references to Select Marksmen using round ball in a smoothbore, but they did not use patching.
There could be a lot of reasons for this, both in the civilian and military world.

One theory is that when you patch without rifling present, the patching folds differently each time, while when there are rifling grooves the folds happen in the grooves the same way, AND of course the patching imparts the stabilizing spin.

Another theory is that while rifles were often sold with a mold, so that the buyer would have a ball close to the bore size, and thus could load with a tight, or slightly less than tight patch as the shooter chose...,

Smoothbore shooters often obtained pre-made ball, or in military formations, a few molds were provided for the entire group of men. This meant that the ball was likely a lot looser than the difference between a rifle's ball and barrel size. SO..., while the rifleman with a .54 was dealing with a self molded ball of .530 or .520 size, the smoothbore guy might be dealing with a .590 ball in his .62 fusil or .65 carbine, or a .690 ball in his .75 Bess.

So for the 18th century smoothbore shooter, perhaps patching didn't work, as they didn't have the option of going to a bare .610 or .615 with a patch in their .62 fusil, or a .730 ball with a patch in a .75.

The Select Marksmen of the 18th century would be issued ball..., and then would roll paper cartridges for accuracy. I think they were making custom sized cartridges that fit just so in their bores, each man knowing exactly what his musket liked when it came to getting an accurate shot out to 90 yards, while using that issued ball. It's also known that only a small portion of the Select Marksman's ammo was thus made, and that the rest of his ammo was standard military rounds. Likely because after a few shots, his bore was so well fouled, that he had to resort to the standard ammo, and save any remaining "accurate" loads until he could take a break and swab his bore, similar to a rifleman.

LD

Exactly .... Good post

 

[IanH]

Who ever said a patch seals the bore is wrong.
It doesn't.
It simply, as the OP first said, transmits the rotational force to the ball from the rifling.
Gas can and does get past the patch.
It's woven nature and application means by default that it will not seal the bore.

Just develope a bare ball load for smoothbores.

That was me. The initial pressure rise compresses the fibers and obturates the bore. If it leaks any at all after that because the ball is too small or the patch too thin, the 10-20K PSI blows the patch.

The patch is not needed to hold the rifling if the ball is of sufficient size to engage it, which isn't much. Nobody ever patched round balls in their revolvers that I know of and they shoot just fine.

 

[Britsmoothy]

That was me. The initial pressure rise compresses the fibers and obturates the bore. If it leaks any at all after that because the ball is too small or the patch too thin, the 10-20K PSI blows the patch.

The patch is not needed to hold the rifling if the ball is of sufficient size to engage it, which isn't much. Nobody ever patched round balls in their revolvers that I know of and they shoot just fine.

I can assure you sir, a cloth patch will not seal the bore.

Try loading a rifle without the patch and see how many shots you get loaded and a good group.
The lubricated patch just facilitates ease of loading a rifle, nothing like a revolver, and passes the rotation to the ball which incidentally does not obturate that much at all. A revolver is easily loaded via a short cylinder that can also be loaded with an oversized ball. A rifle can not.

Some rifles often need a firewall for them to shoot agreeably because of flame cutting.
If you watch slow motion footage of pretty much any firearm you will often see gas and smoke emerge from the barrel before the projectile.