Question for long arms from Loyalist Arms owners

[Flintlock Whiskey]

I can almost hear the eyes rolling at yet another question about Loyalist Arms guns, but....
I have heard that some of them had breech plugs that are actually welded in place. I need to know if this is true at all as I am thinking about possibly purchasing one.

 

[FlinterNick]

I can almost hear the eyes rolling at yet another question about Loyalist Arms guns, but....
I have heard that some of them had breech plugs that are actually welded in place. I need to know if this is true at all as I am thinking about possibly purchasing one.

Most of them have a flange style breech plug, which can appear to be welded but actually is not.

Of the many Indian guns I’ve worked on, the only issue with them I’ve found was that a few have plugs that are pretty short.

The big issue is finding a barrel maker who will work on them, most will not.

 

[Brokennock]

Might want to read this too,,,,
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/fixing-locks.165922/
The way the o.p. was worded suggests having doubts about this purchase and being aware that these guns have a reputation for having issues, but some people also say India made guns are fine...... follow your gut.


Full disclosure, I have no personal opinion on India made guns other than I can understand some people's skepticism and doubts, and I also understand that good examples of guns from makers with poor reputations do come through.

 

[ArmorerRoy]

There is no free lunch. A six to eight hundred dollar gun comes with compromises.

I do own a first model land pattern from loyalist.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

follow your gut.

Never has there been better advice than this.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’m a reinactor and service the muskets for my regiment, what i can honestly tell you is that in the field, i bring home with me (or are mailed) at least 1 Indian musket and or lock with me each time to repair or tune.

At Monmouth a french 1728 from loyalist arms had its stock break at the wrist, clean break through and through from just firing a heavier blank round.

Another french 1728 with a poor performing lock.

Before that two brown bess locks and 1 musket after Brandywine and battle road.

There is virtually no money to be made working on these muskets, which is why many professional builders won’t work on them or if they do, limit their time on them substantially.

i simply do it ensure that arms are maintained for use.

The biggest issue i have found is the locks and stocks being of very poor quality, while i don’t like the way the barrels are breeched, i can’t say they’re not suitable for shooting or re-enacting. But I’m a little more on the picky and conservative side, I’d personally rather have a barrel that is breeched with an appropriate plug

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

From having a few (mostly their matchlocks, but one hand mortar) from Veteran Arms, I would opine that if VA offers the same model you’re looking for as from LA … get it from VA. They go through what is sent to them from overseas, before shipping out to you, and I’ve not experienced any of the issues others have seen with LA arms.

No complaints on the wood on any nor the breech plugs or lengths of the plugs. For the 75-cal fishtail matchlock, I measured the barrel diameter at various spots to the 10/1000ths of an inch, proofed it with a double-ball ‘heavy charge’ (I don’t list my proof loads … ) load and all was well. My standard use/service load was less than half that …

I could see that the lock on the hand mortar was tuned prior to my receipt and I have zero complaints about fit or finish - no more than I would on a factory Lyman or Pedersoli. For me to fill a niche where the only other option is a custombuild from a Rifle Shoppe Kit at 3 to 4 times the price? Yeah well … they might not be for everyone, but some models can be completely serviceable.

With all that said, I’ve no experience with any of the Indian import Bess or Charleville type muskets and would probably seek other options there first.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Can't speak about the LA guns, but I have seen a number of El Cheapo imports with welded breech plugs. Not comforting. Have also seen some with tapered, friction forced plugs (no threads). Scary stuff. Pick yer pizzen carefully.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

The biggest issue i have found is the locks and stocks being of very poor quality,

Thank you. If I were to condense what you have said, better to pay what is needed and cry once. Pay less and cry a lot. At their price point, they can be really attractive to those without a lot of disposable income. I will save it up and find a reputable maker for one (Pedersoli lost me as a consumer unless they prove their QC is as good or better than pre-covid).

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Have also seen some with tapered, friction forced plugs (no threads). Scary stuff.

Friction fit plugs?!
Holy craponium!
Think I'd rather own a surplus Carcano!

 

[wiscoaster]

Friction fit plugs?!
Holy craponium!
Think I'd rather own a surplus Carcano!

Hah!! I own five.

 

[Rudyard]

Having worked on & had compulsory proof tests I never had one failed proof .Not heard of welded breaches ect I don't know the other companies but do know something of Loyalist Arms Ethics so would rate their offering as good value & safe NOTHINGS fool proof once in the buyers hands its down to them . Rudyards view

 

[FlinterNick]

Having worked on & had compulsory proof tests I never had one failed proof .Not heard of welded breaches ect I don't know the other companies but do know something of Loyalist Arms Ethics so would rate their offering as good value & safe NOTHINGS fool proof once in the buyers hands its down to them . Rudyards view

Barrels are not made very well, just an opinion. That doesn’t mean they will fail a proof test, the breech plug issue i don’t like is that many don’t interface with the bore, or shoulder to it or bottom out, they simply just screw in and they’re often over threaded, with a few exposed threads.

Threads are also fine and shallow and breech plug is hollowed.

Here is a picture from a previous discussion thread, not my barrel.

 

[Sam squanch]

I’ve seen many old cheap barrels with threads going past the plug end a few turns. Many old plugs I’ve removed were very short! Yet the barrels survived. They all had coarse threads on them, though.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve seen many old cheap barrels with threads going past the plug end a few turns. Many old plugs I’ve removed were very short! Yet the barrels survived. They all had coarse threads on them, though.

Oh I’m sure it’s perfectly safe, just not what I prefer in a breech.

 

[Rudyard]

Original Besses had short threads some less than 1/2" If your happy its safe why bother best go with folks who have them & are happy. I do know all about conditions for the workers in India I was there too often .
A line of Kipling's who also knew India Goes
" Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hussle the Arrian brown" '
for the Chirstian riles & the Arrian smiles & he whereth the Chrisian down.
" And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased. And an epitath drear ',A fool lies here who tried to hussle the east '. Any spelling errors are mine not his.
Rudyard

 

[Robin101]

You're a better man than I am Gunga Din.
Robin