Question on antique pistol with possible Pennsylvania connection

[MStriebel]

Hi All,

A few of my ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War for the Pennsylvania 2nd Regiment and the 4th Artillery regiment, so I am always on the lookout for antiques that have some tie to Pennsylvania during the Revolutionary War era.

I recently came across a French Model 1763 pistol that I am considering purchasing. This pistol has P/8 stamped on the metal side plate, trigger guard, and butt plate.

I read an article written by George Neumann called "American Made Muskets of the American Revolution" that said that during the war the state of Pennsylvania would sometimes mark its weapons with P or PP to designate the state's ownership of the weapons. I have looked everywhere I can think of for a reference book or other resource that might be able to tell me if markings such as those shown on this pistol would have been typical of what Pennsylvania put on weapons it received. I thought that the P/8 marks on this pistol might be a reference to the 8th Pennsylvania Regiment, but that may just be wishful thinking on my part.

I was hoping that some of the experts on the Muzzleloading Forum might be able to shed some light on this or point me in the right direction.

If anybody out there has some thoughts, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Matt

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[KABAR2]

I would say from the limited images given that this is an assembly number and nothing more... I doubt they would bother marking all the brass bits with a property mark.... Also it would more than likely have been a large "P" stamped or burned into the wood was more common than stamping the all metal parts..... hope this helps

 

[Fernando Keilty]

Hello:

Just to say that I see P 78 instead of P / 8 ......

Fernando K

 

[MStriebel]

Fernando and Kabar,

Many thanks to you both for your comments. I think Fernando's eyes are a heck of a lot better than mine as I now see the markings are P78 with some of the 7 rubbed off. There definitely was no 78th Pennsylvania regiment during the Revolutionary War, so that puts to rest my flawed theory that this might possibly have been a regimental marking.

Kabar said that he would expect a state identification brand to be a bigger mark branded on the stock. Sure enough, I found an model 1763 that was sold by John J. Hayes that had a big CP for Commonwealth of Pennsylvania stamped right on the bottom of the stock.

I think Kabar makes a good point on the markings most likely being parts markings being stamped as part of the production process.

The only thing that has me scratching my head on these markings is that I have never seen anything like this on any other French Model 1763 pistol. The Model 1763 pistols I have seen usually have no markings on the side plate, trigger guard or butt plate. As the French made these pistols at the time at just three arsenals - Charleville, Maubeuge, and St. Etienne - I would have expected that they would have been systematic in the approach to marking metal parts during the manufacturing process. For example, as this pistol was made at the Charleville, I would have expected all or at least most model 1763 pistols made at the Charleville arsenal to be marked in a similar way, but I have never one marked in anything like this way.

Kabar also makes a very logical point that it would be a silly waste of time to mark the trigger guard, butt plate, and side plate with marks just for identification purposes. That makes sense to me, but then I ran across this comment from Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms that he once ran across a Revolutionary War era rifle with total of 5 U.S. surcharge markings on the gun! That seems like overkill to me, but I guess it happened sometimes.

These "P78" markings are definitely not regimental markings, but I am still wondering if they might have put on some point after the date of manufacture for some purpose.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Matt

 

[MStriebel]

Dear All,

I had been looking for a long time for a French Model 1763 pistol with some legitimate evidence of American use during the Revolutionary War. I found a pistol with the right markings and that had a hand carved H on the side as would have been common in a weapon used by an American soldier.

However, I purchased the item on line and I think I let my desire to have this be the type of pistol I wanted blind me to a serious issue. When I examined the pistol after I received it, I realized that the front band was a replacement. Worse yet, the color difference the brighter color of the brass immediately next to the brass band makes me wonder if the change may have been made by a someone well after the original period of use.

Other than this this pistol is as I expected and is the period and markings of a pistol that would have seen use by an American soldier.

I will only be able to afford to own Model 1763 pistol. My question to the experts on the muzzleloader forum is do you think I should return this item to the seller and pay the 15% restocking fee and shipping costs to wait to by an item in all original forum or do you think the this modification is not as big a deal as I am worried it is and I should hold onto the piece?

Thanks for any thoughts any experienced collectors may have. I have definitely learned my lesson to do more due diligence before my next purchase.

Thanks,

Matt

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[suzkat]

Based on my collecting experience, I would say if you paid full retail for the value of a pistol in all original condition, then you need to weigh out the difference between the cost of one that is all original and the value of your modified piece. If your piece is only worth 50% of an unmodified one, then I would return it. If on the other hand you got a great deal based on what you would expect to pay for an all original then you actually got what you paid for. In the end it boils down to A. Are you keeping it for you. B. Are you investing in it. C. Do you like it. D. could you find an original band to replace the repro. Etc. Nobody can make this decision for you. PS. I think the P stamp is no guarantee it was a Pennsylvania piece.

 

[KABAR2]

http://www.antiqueweaponstore.com/French M1763 Flintlock Pistol.htm

A couple things strike me as odd on this..... note how much of the barrel is sticking out at the front.... the wood has been cut back and the band moved back..... also the band has too much swell at the bottom.... It is possible the pistol was reworked during it's working life or by a dealer who "repaired/restored" it to make it salable.... it might be worth returning and continue the search..... if you do find one with American providence it will likely command a higher price then a standard 1763.....

 

[Wes/Tex]

Yes sir, Kabar, exactly right. IN fact, the gun shown in your post just above is the naval version of the pistol, identified by the all brass fixtures, save lock, barrel and screws. :thumbsup:

 

[Fernando Keilty]

Hello:

The band is shorter, has less surface 8, and the script lacks accuracy., And the shoulder on the lower front end. In any case, I think it is a later model, which replaces the missing piece.

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)