Question on barrel types

[MLH53]

New to flintlocks but trying to learn. Saw a gun described as a rifled flint fowler with very shallow rifling to be either a rifle or fowler. What advantage or not does this give over a gun described as a smooth bore fowler that can shoot a prb or shot also? Is the rifled barrel more accurate with both ball and shot? Thanks

 

[hanshi]

I'm not familiar with the type barrel you describe. But I can say a regular smoothbore is capable of round ball accuracy that would greatly surprise you. I'm talking 50 yd. 3-shot groups well under 3".

 

[Grenadier1758]

Straight rifling, no twist, was considered to be the theoretical dual purpose method to put rifling in a fowling gun and prevent the twist opening the shot pattern. Nice theory, but was no better than being smooth bored.

@hanshi has it well described.

 

[david w]

The first rifling grooves were straight, and intended to aid in fouling. the theory was the fouling would collect in the grooves and allow more shots between cleaning. It was quickly discovered that adding twist allowed for longer shots.

 

[Nor'Easter]

I guess I really need to start writing down where I read things. It started on this forum. Someone mentioned the form of rifling that is basically egg shaped. I started researching it and found some testing the Brits had done about the time of the Baker rifle. The Brits did some extensive testing of elliptical, hex, and conventional rifling. One of the things they tested was straight rifling. This is the part I wish I could remember - it seems that a smooth bore shooting round ball produces a 'slice' (like golf) as the range increases. The straight rifling did have a positive effect on accuracy by eliminating the 'slice'. I think they thought it likely that the ball starts to tumble due to imperfections in the ball which produced yaw, and the straight rifling helped prevent left/right yaw, and kept deviations in the vertical plane. So it did improve accuracy but they found not enough to justify the cost over a smooth bore. And the cost was not much less than twist rifling. It was interesting reading.

 

[Nor'Easter]

I think some of the Ordnance Officers or maybe the manufactures thought the straight rifling would help with fouling, as David said. But I don't remember if the report indicated that it had an effect in real world testing.

 

[MLH53]

Thanks for info. I did a bad job explaining. The gun mentioned is a current build for sale on a muzzleloading site. It is 58 cal. With a 37 in rd barrel with 1 in 60 shallow rifling. The ad says in can be a dual purpose rifle or fowler. That's the reason for my question. Hope that helps.

 

[hawkeye2]

It sounds very much like he used a barrel for a Civil War mini rifle. The twist and caliber is right and they have shallow rifling compared to round ball barrels. I doubt it would be anything special with shot and would pass on it myself.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Maybe someone else will chime in, but I don't think it will shoot with shot. Any twist will cause the shot pattern to open up. It could be a fowler in architecture with a rifled barrel.

 

[longcruise]

It won't perform well with shot. The twis causes the shot pattern to spread rapidly. I have tested this. Not just regurgitating! The advertised "shallow" rifling is in a twist that should be good with round ball. I'd proceed with caution based on that claim.

 

[MLH53]

This forum has a wealth of information shared eagerly and as someone new to this hobby it is very much appreciated. Thanks for all the comments.

 

[DuncNZ]

The British had a variation on the P58 Enfield rifles .Lancaster made oval twist bores on a .58 rifle that externally looked very like the Enfield , with the exception that the rear sight was on back to front ie: the highest part of the sight was to the rear . The British Navy used some of these rifles in the land wars here in New Zealand , I have seen two , one immaculate and one which had ended up buried in a swamp , surprisingly it was in fairly good condition , there being no oxygen in peat swamp water . In many ways the bores were like Heckler and Koch and Glock barrels of today .

 

[Nor'Easter]

Thanks, "Lancaster" was the word I was trying to remember!

 

[DuncNZ]

Thanks, "Lancaster" was the word I was trying to remember!

The almost new one my mate had shot just as well or better than a Parker Hale . He was shooting alongside me and doing very well , I asked if putting the sights on back to front made a lot of difference , and was duly enlightened about Mr Lancaster and his oval bore .

 

[Nor'Easter]

The almost new one my mate had shot just as well or better than a Parker Hale . He was shooting alongside me and doing very well , I asked if putting the sights on back to front made a lot of difference , and was duly enlightened about Mr Lancaster and his oval bore .

Yes, I may have to see if I can find that article again and bookmark it. It was the third or fourth thing I had read that night about the oval bore and Mr Lancaster, so I probably have some things cross-wired in my head. It was a good read though.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

New to flintlocks but trying to learn. Saw a gun described as a rifled flint fowler with very shallow rifling to be either a rifle or fowler. What advantage or not does this give over a gun described as a smooth bore fowler that can shoot a prb or shot also? Is the rifled barrel more accurate with both ball and shot? Thanks

If the rifling in the barrel is very deep at all it will fire shot "donuts" instead of a shot stream. That means it will send out an ever expanding O with nothing in the center. Saw that happen when an acquaintance decided to shoot some birdshot out of his longrifle. Was the darndest thing you ever saw. Because the rifling spun it around the center, the pattern was just a big O with no shot in the center at all.

You can fire ball or shot out of a smoothbore whether it's a fowler, musket, or smooth rifle. A smooth rifle is a smoothbore but built on a rifle architecture, including cheek rest. The barrel is usually an octagon to round barrel on those. Conversely, you really can't shoot any kind of shot out of rifled barrel because of the spin it imparts to the shot. A rifle has far greater range and accuracy than a smoothbore. I think a rifle is preferable to a smoothbore, but that's what I have and what I enjoy shooting.

 

[DuncNZ]

New to flintlocks but trying to learn. Saw a gun described as a rifled flint fowler with very shallow rifling to be either a rifle or fowler. What advantage or not does this give over a gun described as a smooth bore fowler that can shoot a prb or shot also? Is the rifled barrel more accurate with both ball and shot? Thanks

Muzzle loaders are a mystery to those who don't know about them and to some who do .
Unless you get the firearm in your hands you can never be sure .
There are many mistakes made by people endeavoring to describe firearms in general , I have seen semi auto's described as machine guns , Battered condition as good , fair condition as as new , ML rifles as muskets would be one of the most common and Hawken to describe any half stock ML rifle .
You need to see it .
There are what are called paradox guns where the bore is smooth to within 2=3 " of the muzzle then that last bit is rifled , these guns were made to use both shot and ball , I dont know if any ML ones were made but there are any number of the other sort .

 

[smoothshooter]

Thanks for info. I did a bad job explaining. The gun mentioned is a current build for sale on a muzzleloading site. It is 58 cal. With a 37 in rd barrel with 1 in 60 shallow rifling. The ad says in can be a dual purpose rifle or fowler. That's the reason for my question. Hope that helps.

Are you sure it didn’t have straight rifling?
I do not see straight rifling being of any help for shooting shot, but I can see where it might offer an advantage with a patched ball.
I intend to have one of my smoothbores straight-rifled before too long and find out for myself. It’s one of those things that sparks a lot of speculation on this forum, but almost no one has the nerve to try it out themselves. Might have it jug-choked at the same time.

 

[DuncNZ]

Are you sure it didn’t have straight rifling?
I do not see straight rifling being of any help for shooting shot, but I can see where it might offer an advantage with a patched ball.
I intend to have one of my smoothbores straight-rifled before too long and find out for myself. It’s one of those things that sparks a lot of speculation on this forum, but almost no one has the nerve to try it out themselves. Might have it jug-choked at the same time.

Is "straight rifling " actually rifling , rifling is always described spiral grooved , this type has to be strait grooved , Ie: it is a groovy gun .
BTW Miroku made skeet guns with a rifled choke built in , this was to open up the pattern , it certainly did not produce donut patterns . They stopped production because most countries said it was a rifle and required different licenses / permits .

 

[smoothshooter]

Is "straight rifling " actually rifling , rifling is always described spiral grooved , this type has to be strait grooved , Ie: it is a groovy gun .
BTW Miroku made skeet guns with a rifled choke built in , this was to open up the pattern , it certainly did not produce donut patterns . They stopped production because most countries said it was a rifle and required different licenses / permits .

Some of the choke tubes were rifled with straight rifling too, IIRC. Can probably still be had, but almost all rifled choke tubes have spiral rifling.