question possible bags

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Well F-B: I'll offer what little advice I have. I think there were two general types, those made in St. Louis and local NDN made. On the St. Louis type bag I would say black leather or dark brown and smooth bark tanned leather. 3-4 oz leather at Tandy Leather would be about right. Most bags were square with maybe a little curve at the bottom corners. It could all be a single piece or two to three pieces. I think most were probably 2 piece. The front piece was the size of the compartment, the back piece was longer and the extra length got folded over the top as a flap. Some times a flap had a button or thong to keep it closed. The weight of the flap could be increased with a metal conch or something similar. In many cases the flap was very long, extending to the bottom of the bag or beyond and had enough weight in itself to hold it down.
The front and back pieces were placed right side out on top of each other and sewn using a "shoestring method- put a needle on each end and run half the line through the first hole and then each needle goes through each hole- from opposite sides- this creates a continuous row of stitches. Linen thread was deemed stronger than cotton thread and waxed linen thread was used. I have seen rawhide thongs or lace and this was a running stitch- in one hole and out the next. It was NOT wrapped around the edge or whipped stitched. The smooth bags seldom had much fringe. Hanson, at the MTF, says most bags did NOT include an adjustment buckle but there were items suspended from the strap- small tools, etc.
If a pillow ticking type lining was added, there would be a decorative figure in the front panel- an elk, etc. and this stitching helped hold the lining in place. Now a days you could use rubber cement- which bonds the lining to the leather and increases the overall strength, however lined bags were not common but rare.
The NDN type would often be soft brain tan with fringe along the bottom. The strap could be leather or braided horsehair, etc. Sinew was used. Sinew is easy, or should I say EASY to use. I find it EASIER to use than artificial sinew so IMHO never use the fake stuff. A huge supply of sinew can be brought from outfits like Crazy Crow for a small sum- maybe $7-10. The back sinew is longer and yields longer threads. With sinew, you make the hole with an awl. You moisten MOST of the thread but leave one end hard- that hard end is stiff enough to feed through a hole made with an awl. I think a whip finish was used most with sinew and it is like the plastic gimp used by kids in summer camp, when you get to the end of one section just lay it down along the seem/edge and start a new piece. The tail end of the new piece is also laid down along the edge and the first 3 or 4 wraps of the new section cover the ends of its tag AND the end of the prior section, at the same time. A real fast way to sew.
In the east a lot of bags were of better quality- cut out designs on the front panel with a different color leather backing, scalloped edges, bound and covered edges, a lot of cloth woven straps.
This is real basic info, the subject is extensive. You can sew "inside out" so the panels pop apart and create a more roomy interior. You can add a gusset, you can- with soft leather, have a slightly small front panel- sort of like the toe/vamp on a moccasin.
Which kind do I like best? I like both. On a "hard" smooth leather I might wear my horn on the other side so I don't hear it knocking against the bag while I walk. On a soft, brain tan, the soft leather and horn nestle quickly together and are suited for carrying both on the same side. On a hard bag, you can also suspend a horn from the straps, above the bag. As I said, endless variety.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
how do you punch clean round holes in the leather so the holes won't tear out?

I like triangular needles. They poke through leather and close up so no visible hole remains. I have (had) a huge one that was easy on the hands to use but still didn't tear up even thin leather. Misplaced it somewhere. :(

Triangular needles still work by cutting or breaking the fibers of the leather, no matter if the hole looks clean when you use them and even when the leather is moistened when you punch the holes. Actually a small diameter straight tapered awl, or what is called a scratch awl often today, would damage the leather less and leave a cleaner hole when the leather is moistened. However I don't see how lacing is going to close the hole as much as using two opposing threads and tightening each hand stitch, as you go along the pouch.

Of course I am assuming one would make the lacing from the same leather used to make the pouch. That way the temper or hardness of the lace would not cause the holes in the weather to wear open more, especially when the pouch got wet. That also means it is difficult to close the holes when lacing, even when the leather is moistened. If one uses too hard of a thread or lace, it is really going to wear the holes open more (sort of a sawing type wear) when the pouch is used outdoors and especially in rain/snow.

Again, I am not saying lacing was not done to make a pouch, as it could have been done in an emergency as if one lost a pouch in a river, for example. But, it seems it would only have been a short term/emergency use pouch that was replaced or later hand sewn when time was more available. For example, I could see one making an emergency pouch with lace a little larger than normal, so the lacing hole leather area could be cut off and the pouch resewn with thread of some kind.

Gus
 
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/01/hunting-pouch-set-by-tc-albert.html
This is a copy of an original bag made by TC Albert - only on the original the fringe was laced to the bag not sewn as TC did - so at least some lace was used by those in the eastern USA.

As Brown Bear noted fine lacing (some work was and still is done with lace as fine as 1/64") was also widely used by the Spanish settlers of the SW - lacing can be just as fine of quality as sewn with thread - it does not mean that is crude or of lesser quality, just because the "hippie" crap of the 1960's looks crude.
Lacing was also used as decoration in the Southwest - In Jim Gordon's New Mexico museum he has a very fine courier type bag with fancy laced decoration.

crockett - while sinew was used by the Indians so was imported thread - linen, cotton, and silk thread all show up on RMFT era trade lists along with needles for sewing. Of the several hundred pieces of Indian clothing and gear I've had the privilege to examine much was sewn with thread - based on my research sinew shows up more often in beadwork after the 1830's while thread was more often used for construction.
 
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LaBonte said:
As Brown Bear noted fine lacing (some work was and still is done with lace as fine as 1/64") was also widely used by the Spanish settlers of the SW - lacing can be just as fine of quality as sewn with thread - it does not mean that is crude or of lesser quality, just because the "hippie" crap of the 1960's looks crude.

Not trying to argue, but just trying to clarify. Such fine lacing was the result of skilled craftsmen raised in that tradition and not the average settler or frontiersman? I realize a frontiersman could have traded for such a shooting pouch, though.

Gus
 
As stated bove Spanish/Texan/New Mexican did do some lace work. And as stated above people would do what they needed to. Most bags were made by some one who knew how to do it...and were not made by the fellow that carrired the bag. Some one on the frontier may have to replace a bag and may lace. However Sinew for sewing has its own 'needle' attched,you jest didn't wet an inch or so on the end. Thread can do the same thing by dipping an inch in wax then sewing9or double it and dip the center in wax. You have to cut lacing holes or sewing holes in most leathers anyway. Until stamped needles came out in the 1840s most people used some sort of home made needle. You would have been hard pressed to find some one on the frontier that couldnt make a needle.
Could a person have had a laced bag, yes, but go with a sewed one and you will never get an argument.
 
tenngun said:
...You would have been hard pressed to find some one on the frontier that couldnt make a needle.

I've seen some on archeological digs that would take your breath away- tiny little things as fine as any metal versions you can buy today. Virtually all were made from split bird bone. They'd drill the hole first, then split/cut away bone to form the needle. Tried it myself and it was relatively easy. Long as you used an awl to poke a hole first, they are plenty strong and durable.
 
Made one or two myself from bone,antler and thorn from black locust. I dont doubt a bag could have been laced in the past but it would have likly been more work then sewing
 
On making "holes" for lace....there are options. For punched holes, you could use a punch tool (Tandy sells a rotary hole puncher). These are like a paper puncher and remove leather material. Of all the options I think punching holes is the least desirable. I would not punch holes. Usually you can see the holes which is unsightly.
For lace, Tandy also sells an assortment of small chisels- I forget the proper name of these tools. You can buy a single blade or multiple blades (looks like a fork). The multiple blades insure an even spacing of the slits. You can get multiple blades that have the prongs slanted if that appeals to you. These tools cut fibers but don't remove material so I would think the edge is stronger than when punching holes.
The lace can be wrapped around the edge, either a single, double or triple. You can do a traditional running stitch with lace and if you fold the lace, a "buck stitch"- looks like a series of diamond shapes. Tandy sells books explaining all these options.
If asked what is the strongest. I never thought about it very much but I suppose a whip stitch around the edge- if you try to pull the pieces of leather apart the stress is from the hole to the edge. If you do a running stitch and try to pull the pieces apart, the stress is from top to bottom- maybe a stronger method- I'm not sure.
If you use an awl, the thinking was that an awl moved material aside in creating a hole and in time the resiliency of the leather would spring back and close up the hole. A round awl is better at this, as stated, the triangular awls might actually cut some material.
It's a pretty complicated subject when you get into the fine details. If you get into beading, the NDN's often "Bunched" up soft leather and used an awl which made a hole that went into one side, forward THROUGH THE THICKNESS of the leather and then out the same side. You could bead a vamp on a moccasin without having to make any holes through the thickness of the leather.
So....beading a vamp with real sinew and pc beads- makes that Tandy rotary hole punching tool look pretty fake from a pc standpoint.
NDN's used to make lace by driving a knife into a block of wood and turning a round section of rawhide around and around- cutting out a long section of lace. When this practice started I am not sure, it might be post 1840.
 
i have a sewing awl that has the cotton thread on it already may just go ahead and use that for now or get a couple of needle and do a double stitch not sure right now but wondered about the lacing.


Andy
 
If the needle has a groove, that's what I call a stitching awl but there are probably other names as well. I used one for years and they work fine. One reason I stopped using it is because the needle with the thread also is used to make the hole and I do a lot of knives- each requiring a sheath and the leather I used was so thick I started breaking the needles- which are fairly expensive. For thin leather, if it is a stitching awl, the little loops have to be positioned in between the surfaces of the leather which isn't a problem on thick leather but if you use 3-4 oz leather for a pouch- might cause a problem.
I don't mean to push Tandy products but I don't know of any other manufacturers so I'll speak about some of their tools. All their tools are pretty cheap and last a lifetime- or hand it down a generation- several lifetimes.
There is a small wheel with prongs. You roll this tool along the edge where you want to sew and each little prong makes an impression in the leather. The idea is that you have perfectly spaced holes. You make the holes with a small, hand held awl. Then the "shoelace" method with a needle on either end of the thread. One problem with the shoelace method is the thread keeps going through every hole and the thread could get frayed so keep some beeswax handy and every 20-30 stitches maybe rub the wax over the thread- do that and no problems.
When you are done you back stitch through three prior holes, actually 3 1/2 because you want both ends of the thread on the back of the bag- then just cut off the thread- it will not unravel through the holes. Finally, use that wheel with the prongs and roll over your stitches, the wheel pushes all the stitching down evenly and creates a nicely finished job.
Well, that's how I do some of my projects. Hope I shortened the learning curve- took me a long time to figure things out.
 
Andy,

Are you talking about a "speed" sewing awl like the one in this link? I bought one of these in the 70's before I knew any better and it was a complete waste of money. http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/home/1216-00.aspx

If so, please understand this works like a modern sewing machine, but none of the benefits. It causes you to put a loop of string through the hole and insert the other string through it. However, if a thread gets cut, the stitching will unravel. Can't tell you how many Law Enforcement leather gun belts sewn this way came part in just that way and I RE-sewed by hand in the 70's. Once they were hand stitched, they lasted for years.
Gus
 
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Artificer said:
...if a thread gets cut, the stitching will unravel.

That's my experience too. I used to keep one in a saddlebag back for emergency repairs back in the day. But I'd replace the stitching with saddle stitching (2-needle sewing) the minute I got home. When the last of our horses and tack went down the road, my speed stitcher went into the drawer and hasn't seen the light of day since.
 
Watch that lacing stuff :wink:

2014-04-06191732_zpsf02bfeb7.jpg
 
Look at the copy of the Boone bag by TC Albert in muzzleloader early this year. A laced bag of a great skilled maker.
 
That's what I was talking about- YES. You pull off a long line of string and run that through the first hole, You then push the grooved needle through the second hole and pull back just a little to form a loop in the thread and then physically run the tag end through the loop and pull tight- hopefully the "knot" is hidden within the thickness of the leather but as stated, if the line breaks it will unravel. The "shoelace/two needle method is a lot better IMHO.
 
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