question possible bags

[fire-n-brimstone]

How many do you think were laced if any. I am thinking of building one and lacing it tight.


Andy

 

[Greebe]

Oh man you are in for it by using those two words, "Possible Bag" together. :shocked2: I did this when I first joined the site and it turned in to a big heated discussion about that being the "wrong" term and not HC even though they all knew what I was talking about.

Your going down man!!!! :blah:

 

[hawkeye2]

Only the suede fringed ones sold in the '70's. they matched the lace-up knee high "hippie" moccasins. :stir:

 

[fire-n-brimstone]

So they are a modern thing? I have trouble believing with all they carried they carried needles and thread to sew bags. I can believe some were laced.

Andy

 

[Rifleman1776]

So they are a modern thing? I have trouble believing with all they carried they carried needles and thread to sew bags. I can believe some were laced.

Andy

They are not a modern thing. Over shoulder bags have been carried since before Moses. And, folks have always been individuals and made things their own way. Do yer thang, don't apologize.
And, yes, in this game certain words flame quicker than bp. Possible, shooting, ball bag, shot bag, and much more. Doesn't matter wat ye call it except "mine". Make, post pic and enjoy.
Edit: BTW, sewing supplies have been a staple for wanderers since before Moses also. I know, he told me so. :wink:

 

[fire-n-brimstone]

thanks rifleman. appreciate the info and i will post pics when i get around to it.

Andy

 

[Artificer]

Only the suede fringed ones sold in the '70's. they matched the lace-up knee high "hippie" moccasins. :stir:

Not knowing any better and no way then to find out better, I made a shooting pouch out of buckskin colored cowhide split and laced it up in 1972. I wasn't a hippie, but otherwise it resembled that remark. Grin. I took a lot of time and made it carefully and it looked great on the table. However, when I put it on and put the shooting items in it, it was a complete FAILURE as it was too soft and just bunched up. So I wasted the time and money on the leather and tools. The only thing I ever used that pouch for was to hang on the rope that held up the Ozan in a Tipi and put items in it for storage.

If you have never handsewn leather, here is an EXCELLENT tutorial by forum member Lablonte. http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/_leatherstitch.html

Here is the book referred to in the above link and you can also get it from Tandy’s. This book had not been published when I began doing leatherwork in 1972. I bought my copy after I first heard about it in the late 70’s I think. More than 25 years later and I don’t know how many period items I have sewn, I STILL sometimes pull out this book to refer to it. http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Hand-Sewing-Leather/dp/1892214911

Gus

 

[crockett]

Well, I sure made a lot of stuff that was wrong. When I found out it was wrong I "re-made" it and then usually found out I still had a few details wrong so did it again, etc. etc.
Since there are a lot of folks here that will help why not just ask lots of questions before wasting any materials.
By "lacing" I'm not sure what you mean.
On the "Possibles". Blame the catalogs that sold hunting pouches back in the 1960's and 1970's when the re-birth of black powder started. They called hunting pouches "possibles" bags and the name stuck.
There actually was a sort of "carry-all" sack called a possibles bag but it was for all your non-hunting things. Say about 18" by 24".
There are a lot of different ways to sew a hunting pouch. Linen thread and smooth leather, "Brain tan" and sinew or a rawhide thong. The front and back can be sewn inside on or just flat or have a gusset. Some of the design depends on whether you are a long hunter, mountain man, etc.
Might as well ask, ask, ask. What about the strap, what about the buckle, what about lining, what about any designs. Lots of questions.

 

[pwbsmokey]

I started muzzleloading in 1988. I bought a 50 cal. "Hawken" just like Jeremiah Johnson wanted. My rifle was a CVA St Louis Hawken, and I used an old purse for a "possible bag". As i learned more I found out how PC/HC, authentic I wanted to be. I sold the CVA and bought a Lyman 54 cal. GPR. I got rid of the purse and bought a lace together kit from Tandy Leather (it is also a purse, but don't tell anyone). I decorated it with deer antler buttons and such, I'm sure it's not HC but I like it. I like use accessories that have an old time feeling to them, meaning not plastic. The main things are that you need to find what you like and what is right for you, keep the old time (non-inline/modern) muzzleloading spirit alive.

 

[azmntman]

And, yes, in this game certain words flame quicker than bp

< was even chastised for the term "common sense" here a few months ago! :shocked2: :rotf:

Otay...whatever.........

 

[fire-n-brimstone]

Well i am gonna do the bag when i have time. I will be cutting my own lacing and doing it with a awl. I honestly think some of them had to be laced just due to resources available. I will study bag patterns i am actually at looking at portraying a plainsman in Texas if that helps. All suggestions and comment are appreciated so please keep them coming.

Andy

 

[necchi]

I think it's all about "quality",
Stitching is work, lacing isn't.
Did folks in yesteryear have different qualities of bag available?
Very likely they did, just the same as today.

 

[hanshi]

The PC term is "uncommon sense", or something to that effect. But then it may just be "country learning". :idunno:

 

[Many Klatch]

Sewing with linen thread is probably easier than cutting thongs, punching big holes and then lacing. I have never seen any pictures of original bags that were laced but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist. You might want to do a bit of research before you start cutting leather.

 

[Artificer]

Well i am gonna do the bag when i have time. I will be cutting my own lacing and doing it with a awl. I honestly think some of them had to be laced just due to resources available. I will study bag patterns i am actually at looking at portraying a plainsman in Texas if that helps. All suggestions and comment are appreciated so please keep them coming.

Andy

It is actually much easier to demonstrate historic authenticity with hand sewing, rather than lacing.

Virtually every home took flax or nettles and made thread and cloth from it. Nettles were often used first, for example in Kentucky, and replaced by flax after they had time to grow some. It has been said buffalo hair was even used for both in the early days of Kentucky. Sinew was also worked down into sewing thread by Native Americans and later, the colonists.

What about sewing needles? Well, Boar/Hog Bristles have been used by some of the best leather workers since Medieval Days and there are still some who won't use steel needles. Hogs were commonly found on the frontier as they didn't cost much to feed since they were turned out and only herded and penned up shortly before butchering. Needles were also made of bone, thorns and other items.

Though awls can be made from natural material, any blacksmith could make a sewing awl very easily. I have no doubt that almost every frontier cabin or home had at least one awl in it.

OK, what about lacing? I will never forget seeing an illustration in a Herters' catalogue in the 60's showing how NA's and Canadians took a piece of leather and kept cutting around it in ever smaller circles to make lace. Yes, I have done it with a good set of shears and it works, but it is very time consuming. I would not want to try it with a knife.

OK, so how do you punch clean round holes in the leather so the holes won't tear out? Ooops, almost no one had those kind of punches and those who did were Saddle makers who would not have dreamed of lacing something together like a shooting pouch. Try punching holes for lace in leather with a knife and see how far you get before you cut the leather through where you don't want to.

What about wear and tear? Hand sewing is normally done with the seams protected by turning them inside out and often using a welt in the seam. Even if not protected by the construction, you can cut every fourth stitch and the stitching will hold. Cut or wear the lace through, and the pouch starts coming apart in no time. Lacing also allows more water to get into the pouch through the holes. NOT a good thing for some items in your shooting pouch.

Now I'm sure it would be wrong to state that no shooting pouch was ever made by using lacing rather than handsewing, but the fact there are virtually no examples of laced shooting pouches from the Pre Civil War days - strongly suggests that they did not last long and most people used handsewing because that lasted.

Gus

 

[Rifleman1776]

how do you punch clean round holes in the leather so the holes won't tear out?

I like triangular needles. They poke through leather and close up so no visible hole remains. I have (had) a huge one that was easy on the hands to use but still didn't tear up even thin leather. Misplaced it somewhere.
Having tried a lot of different threads I have settled on hemp as my favorite. It can be separated into small threads or left as is for a very stout stitch. I carry a hunk of beeswax and lube the thread for easier stitching. I get the hemp from stores that have funny looking plant pictures in the window and the clerks say "Ya man" a lot. :shocked2: :wink:

 

[fire-n-brimstone]

I have 20 ft of sinew. I was just wanting to do something different.

Andy

 

[BrownBear]

...a plainsman in Texas....

Wish I could offer more than general help, but you might look south and west for inspiration. A few years back I was in one of the museums in Santa Fe, and they had some examples of leather work from the era with heavy Mexican/Spanish influence, including lace work. "Finer" than I'd expect for a poor working plainsman, but I bet they'd have influenced his tastes in stuff he built for himself. Might do some googling, including the NM state museum.

 

[Luke MacGillie]

http://www.mtmen.org/mtman/html/smithgood.html

The Manifest of Jedediah Smith's Trade Goods
Manifest that the citizen of the United States of America, Samuel Par[k]man, agent of citizen Jeradiah[sic] S. Smith, deceased, presents to the National Customs of the Territory of New Mexico of the effects that he brought from the said States, whose brands and quantities are as follows:

Chest No. 1:

1 dozen small saws
8 large saws
2 dozen chisels
2 gross small augers
6 dozen panes of window glass
2 dozen scutcheons
2 dozen brass nails for curtains
10 gross small screws
6 packages iron tacks
2 dozen pen knives
1 dozen pocket razors
3 dozen pen knives
3 dozen pocket knives
1 dozen shaving razors
3 dozen shaving razors
2 dozen butcher knives
4 dozen table knives
7 dozen table knives
3 dozen butcher knives
4 dozen butcher knives
3 dozen butcher knives
2 dozen green razor handles
3 dozen white razor handles
2 dozen pocket razors
2 gross thimbles
2,000 needles
130 large needles
1 dozen scissors
3 3/4 dozen scissors
2 gross small spoons
7 small augers
8 large augers
3 dozen bone buttons
4 gross marble buttons
2 gross glass buttons
1 gross shell buttons
1 gross coat buttons
2 gross waistcoat buttons
1 dozen small files
1 dozen large files
1 dozen large files, half hollowed
1 dozen rasps
3 dozen large scutcheons
3 dozens small scutcheons

 

[BrownBear]

For a couple of centuries or so before that, NM was getting supplies shipped north from Mexico, too.