Questions about a real St. Louis Hawken

[50cal.cliff]

First off I am rebuilding a Traditions St.Louis Hawken halfstock, that the stock got broken on. I will use a lot of the parts that I have to offset some of the cost since this will be my first build from scratch. Now I know this is going to turn off a lot of purists but I need the experience and I already have the parts from the Traditions.

Now I know the Traditions St. Louis Hawkens are a far piece from the originals, to say the least. So in a quest to get closer to the originals. So with the rebuild I am going to try and get as close an original as I can!

So that is my question does anyone have pictures of real St. Louis Hawken, that I can use for references.

I am thinking that the originals probably did not have all the brass parts. So I have plans to do all the furniture out of steel. I am thinking that I can make several of the parts. But I may need to buy the butt plate from steel.

Anyone know where to get a steel butt plate for a St. Louis style Hawken?

I know there is a difference in the originals in the way the stock at the butt plate was that is one reason I am looking for pics to use as a reference.

What kind of a sights would an original Hawken have had on it?

Any information that someone can share I would appreciate it, too help me along on this build!

 

[nmdd]

picture quality leaves a lot to be desired:
http://www.daytraco.com/examples.aspx

Hawken Shop Furnishings:
http://www.daytraco.com/Departments/The-Hawken-Shop/Hawken-Components/Hawken-Shop-Furnishings.aspx

:hatsoff:

 

[Paul R]

Cliff, Welcome to building. IMHO, I think you have made a good choice by starting with a rebuild that you can make the way you want. Major parts are a lot cheaper & you don't get all bent out of shape if you screw up. Worse case scenario, you can always sell it to somebody as a shooter & get your money back. I'm just finishing up my third build, the first one I bought all new parts for. It's a lot better then my first 2, but it's a good thing I like it & want it as a shooter for myself, cause I don't know if anybody would buy it for enough to get my money back.
I still haven't completely learned to think things all the way through, and walk away when I recognize I'm tired cause that is when I make mistakes.
Above all, have fun.
Paul

 

[sc45-70]

http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFMAction.cfm?PageNumToDisplay=1&url2pass=&CFMWord=Hawken

SC45-70

 

[rich pierce]

Good on ya for working on your gun. Great way to learn. The biggest difference between a real St. Louis Hawken and most reproductions can be discerned by a blind man sitting in an easy chair. Hand him a real one and ask him to heft it and then set the butt on the ground and see how high the muzzle of the barrel is alongside his head as he sits there. Then do the same with one of many reproductions. The difference will often be 3 pounds and 4-6 inches. That difference in size and heft outweighs many of the style differences to me. They were big guns.

 

[bioprof]

You should be able to get a steel butt plate for a St. Louis Hawken from TOW.

 

[50cal.cliff]

http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFMAction.cfm?PageNumToDisplay=1&url2pass=&CFMWord=Hawken

SC45-70

Is their anyway to enlarge those photos? Being computer illiterate is the pits! :shocked2: :redface: When I was coming up only NASA and colleges had computers and they too up whole rooms!

Thanks to everyone that has posted to this thread! Every bit of info I can lay my hands on will be a help!

 

[jdkerstetter]

Can't help you with that but over in the "photos" section there is a recent post that has some great pictures....contemporary, not originals, but some are as close as you'll get.

Have you checked your local library for books or to see if they can get one inter-library loan?

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[nmdd]

hold down the ctrl key and then hit the + key...

 

[sc45-70]

Left click on the image of the rifle you want to see.
Several new images will appear.
Left click on the image you want to see and a screen will come up that will allow you to enlarge the photo by left clicking on the +.

You will have to left click on the enlarged photo and drag it to the center.

I'm not worth a crap with a computer either so I hope you understand what I am talking about.

SC45-70

 

[50cal.cliff]

Left click on the image of the rifle you want to see.
Several new images will appear.
Left click on the image you want to see and a screen will come up that will allow you to enlarge the photo by left clicking on the +.

You will have to left click on the enlarged photo and drag it to the center.

I'm not worth a crap with a computer either so I hope you understand what I am talking about.

SC45-70

Hey thank you very much. Now here is my first question after looking at the photos close up.

Click the link I provided and if you zoom into the but plate.
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...key=21729&img=/Photos2009/2000.14.1.2.1.2.jpg

The piece of the butt plate steel that runs up the bottom from the heel looks to be two pieces at the corner of the very heel!

Is that correct that it is two pieces?

Was that the normal for it to be two pieces?

This is a full length stock in this link. However is shows what I feel is a classic look of an original Hawken the flat area on the bottom of the stock!
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ct_key=32976&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.14v4.jpg

How wide would have this area have been?

I am thinking this flat area would have been approxamately 1/8" on each side of the metal piece that runs up from the heel, does that sound about right?[/color]

In this view of the full length Hawken that flat area on the bottom of the stock extends from heel to about midway of the trigger.

Would have that been the stopping point of the flat on an original Hawken, (midway of the trigger)?

Another thing that makes an original stand out in my mind is the snail around the drum! I know you can buy them in brass I think!
However the originals would have been steel.

Can you buy a snail in steel, and if so where?

OK these are some features that to me make a Hawken original stand out to me!
The piece of steel that runs up from the heel parallel to the flat bottom strip of the stock itself, and the snail!

What other features of a classic Hawken do you feel make an original stand out, other than the weight?

As far as sights with my eyes I don't think the classic V or V buckhorn is going to work for me. The sights on the rifle right now are a modern ramp version of a sight, with a circle aperture. The circle aperture makes it easier for me to pick up the front site correctly and hit what I am aiming at!


Is there a sight that looks more authentic that uses a circle aperture similar to what I need to be able to see the sights correctly?

 

[50cal.cliff]

I tried to edit but was too late. I may be wrong when I used the term snail. I may be talking about a flash cup!

When using a flash cup is it used with a drum? Now I am a little confused. I wish I had the one or two I have seen to look at again so I could nail down this detail! When looking at the photos it looks as if the flash cup and the drum are built as one!

I want to get it right on my rebuild! I have saw a couple of originals in a museum but didn't pay enough attention to that detail to answer my own question.

Edit:
If I am looking correctly the flash cup of an original and drum are one unit.

Can I add a flash cup behind my drum to make it appear to be original, if I take my time and do it right?

Or do they make a replacement that has it built as one unit, and if so who carries it?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Is that correct that it is two pieces?

Was that the normal for it to be two pieces?

Yes, buttplate and return are forge welded to each other.

This is a full length stock in this link. However is shows what I feel is a classic look of an original Hawken the flat area on the bottom of the stock!
How wide would have this area have been?

Between 1/2" and 3/4" as determined by the bottom of the buttplate and the trigger guard return.

I am thinking this flat area would have been approxamately 1/8" on each side of the metal piece that runs up from the heel, does that sound about right?[/color]

It is the toe and not the heel and the bottom of the stock is only as wide as the toe plate...no wider...so that the toe plate edges are visible at from the sides of the butt stock.

In this view of the full length Hawken that flat area on the bottom of the stock extends from heel to about midway of the trigger.

Would have that been the stopping point of the flat on an original Hawken, (midway of the trigger)?

Yes.

Another thing that makes an original stand out in my mind is the snail around the drum! I know you can buy them in brass I think!
However the originals would have been steel.

Can you buy a snail in steel, and if so where?

The "snail" is actually the patent breach, there is not drum on a St. Louis Hawken. The breech should always be steel, enen in a brass barreled gun. The Hawken breech is available through any of the parts suppliers but I recommend Don Stith on any Hawken build. I think the problem you are going to have is finding one that is threaded metric for your barrel.

What other features of a classic Hawken do you feel make an original stand out, other than the weight?

A long beaver tail tang on the standing breech with 2 bolts going through the wrist and secured in a long trigger guard rail is what helped give Hawkens strength in the wrist above other guns of the period.

Most Hawken "plains" rifles had tapered barrels, I.I.R.C.

Depending on which Hawken you are building the foreward end of the trigger guard had a thread bolster that was turned into a threaded screw in the trigger plate.

If you are considering going this far...rebreeching, replacing the buttplate and trigger guard and other misc. parts...have you thought about just restocking with the pieces you have for practice and then investing in parts or a kit to do an actual Hawken build?

Is there a sight that looks more authentic that uses a circle aperture similar to what I need to be able to see the sights correctly?

Yes. You can take any sight you choose and afix and apeture to it. It can be as simple as a washer fixed to the sight. The farther from the eye the bigger the whole.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

When looking at the photos it looks as if the flash cup and the drum are built as one!

A flash cup is merely a cone with a hole in it that is retained by the nipple. You are correct that they were used with drums.

As above, what the Hawkens used was a patent breech like these. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/664/1

They didn't need a flash cup, because as you indicated, the flash shield was built in.

I don't know of a source that offers these in metric but if you looked or asked one of the suppliers they may be able to supply on unthreaded that you could tap to metric.

No offense, but I again suggest that you just build on the parts you have for practice and then save up for a real Hawken build as there are vertually no parts on a Traditions gun that lend themselves to a reproduction of a real Hawken.

Since the stock is broken and you are already contemplating changing so many parts as it appears you want to be authentic I feel this is just the best and most economical option.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[50cal.cliff]

J.D. I appreciate the input and think that is probably what I will dn this build I will go back with a lot of the parts I already have. However I want to do my own stock not a pre-carve. I want the experience in learning how to mark out, cut and inlet the whole thing! That way when I do the next build that will be totally from scratch with parts, I will have an idea of what I am doing!

I think my problem is my mind is working ahead of me on this one. However I still want to try and nail down the features that make an original an original!

I hear so many say well that doesn't look anything like an original Hawken but then when you try and nail them down as to what really makes and original, there are few who can really name those features.

I know close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades but after looking at the pictures more closely. I have discovered something. Even the originals were not all alike!

Take a look at these photos: http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/ImageViewer.cfm?object_key=21729&img=/Photos2006/2000.14.1.jpg
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=22937&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.8v5.jpg
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=22937&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.8v5.jpg

The third one had a totally different trigger guard. It almost appears to be brass to me.

In fact it also looks alot like the trigger guard that my rifle has on it now except it doesn't have the second prong at the back end of it(or as this picture is orientated the upper end of it) that extends off of the very rear of the guard in the third picture.

Here is a picture of the one that is on the rifle now!

So which type of trigger guard would have been the more common?

Like those in the first two pictures or like the one in the third picture?

Was brass trigger guards ever used on the origionals?

Some folks get real disturbed when you start asking these questions. I an not sure exactly why but I have been down this road before. I rarely get to look at the originals. Well I am looking at the pictures and I have read a lot about them.
I already have one file stashed away that answers a lot of questions when it comes too originals. I finally after making several mad got one person to sit down and really start laying out what they felt was the things that make an original Hawken. When they did that, it seemed the flood gates opened and I had many others chime in. Here is one of those threads: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/218015/tp/1/
I have another that has more info in it and I will glad to share it, right at the moment I can't put my eyes on it!

You see I am on a quest too learn all I can! Not by taking a short cut to learn it but by talking to the ones that have the knowledge. I don't have the opportunity very often to do a hands on an original so I have to use other means to do my research.

I learned a long time ago that knowledge is no good if you take it too the grave with you. But when you impart it on those living it can be passed down from generation to generation!


So guess I am doing double duty here in this post. I am asking questions about my first build in an effort to impart enough knowledge to do a second build and do it real justice as an authentic replica of a real Hawken.
So folks don't get mad I am just doing what my Grandson calls learning. I asked him why he asked so me many questions the other day and he tells me, "I am just learning Pawpaw that is why I ask so many questions"! :rotf:

 

[50cal.cliff]

OK waited to long to edit but this is the pic
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=40436&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.9v5.jpg

I wanted to post to compare the trigger guard with mine too

In the previous post I posted the wrong picture and didn't realize it till now!

I know they are not exactly alike but very similar! The one on the original has the extra spike at the rear of it and it goes more straight back at the end but if mine had the second spike the difference would not be a lot!

 

[jdkerstetter]

Your brass gaurd is actually a lot closer to Dimick's, another maker of plains guns.

Hawkens' are generally rounder in the bow where Dimick's were more square.

Doesn't matter for your current build though.

We are fortunate that there are so many surviving Hawkens out there and they are fairly well documented if you are willing put forth the research.

Parts are availible for about any Hawken you would want to build from the earliest to the latest. More than a couple of sets of plans available of half stock Hawkens and at least one set on a full stock Hawken that are suposed to have been drawn from an originals.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Thanks JD this one is round, http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/ImageViewer.cfm?object_key=21729&img=/Photos2006/2000.14.1.jpg



The one in that pic I referenced is more squared in. http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=40436&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.9v5.jpg
And while it may be my eyes but I swear it looks like brass!

Do you or anyone else care to throw out an answer to this question.
Was brass trigger guards ever used on the origionals?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Sorry, I was talking about the how the bottom line of your trigger guard bow is flat (square) and the Hawkens is remanes curved....symantics.

I have not seen an original brass mounted St. Louis Hawken plains rifle but understand that some of their smaller caliber stuff was brass mounted.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Bruce Bogart]

Cliff
google up a guy named Don Stith.