Questions about all the knives and axes

[GrantThompsonIII]

So I am diving into muzzleloading. I want to go all in. I am right now in the midst of ordering either a .54 Woodsrunner or a .54 colonial from Kibler. I however want some period correct blades to go with the rifle. I see on the forum there are all sorts of blades. Rifleman's Knife, Scalping Knife, Belt Knife, Camp Knife, Patch Knife and Skinner Knife. For axes I see there are Tomahawks, Belt Axes, Camp Axes and specific army axes and various hatchets. Now If I were to best represent a long hunter between 1750 and 1780 which of these blades would I carry ? I know this seems like a silly question but I am confused by all the different blades.

 

[rich pierce]

For a knife I’d go with an English trade knife if I felt I needed a belt knife. I have one made by Wick Ellerbe that is my go-to kitchen and field knife. If interested in historical accuracy stay away from curly maple handles and flat blades with a pronounced grind bevel at the edge. Easily made from flat stock but wrong for the period.
A colonial period folding knife is handy and correct.

The Biscayne style trade ax (aka tomahawk) is the most common inexpensive hatchet-sized ax. Biscayne Trade Axes: the earliest known metal axes in North America

Other options are less common for the period.

 

[Brokennock]

Now If I were to best represent a long hunter between 1750 and 1780

Okay, you've given us a when, we could really use a where you give you the most accurate answer. As in where your personal is at the time he is using the gear and where he is from.
And, I once again must add,,,, be careful with the "longhunter" description or title. These were a very small (in the grand scheme of Colonial American frontier history) group of men from a very specific place and hunting a very specific area. "Longhunter," is one of the most overused and misused terms in our activities,,,, at least as regards a person.

Generally speaking though, it would be hard to go wrong with a basic English trade knife in most of the American Colonies at the time. A properly made one anyway.

As for a small axe or tomahawk, again, the more info we have on the persona, the more accurate we can be. A small belt are is good, but beware the "fort Meigs" axe, provenance is somewhat iffy. A basic well made tomahawk can be good too. What are your purposes for the axe?

 

[Red Owl]

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...ABHbxyD0sQjJkEegQIBhAC&biw=1920&bih=937&dpr=1
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index... one of these sieges,is a well proven design.

 

[GrantThompsonIII]

Okay, you've given us a when, we could really use a where you give you the most accurate answer. As in where your personal is at the time he is using the gear and where he is from.
And, I once again must add,,,, be careful with the "longhunter" description or title. These were a very small (in the grand scheme of Colonial American frontier history) group of men from a very specific place and hunting a very specific area. "Longhunter," is one of the most overused and misused terms in our activities,,,, at least as regards a person.

Generally speaking though, it would be hard to go wrong with a basic English trade knife in most of the American Colonies at the time. A properly made one anyway.

As for a small axe or tomahawk, again, the more info we have on the persona, the more accurate we can be. A small belt are is good, but beware the "fort Meigs" axe, provenance is somewhat iffy. A basic well made tomahawk can be good too. What are your purposes for the axe?

I guess I would be trying to portray a longhunter from Maryland. I was told at Fort Frederick that Longhunters were typically from Maryland, Virginia and the Carolinas. If that is incorrect than I guess I would just be portraying a Appalachain Maryland Hunter.

 

[FishDFly]

For general all around learning and education, buy the following book:

Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men by Carl P. Russel

A Guide To The Equipment Of the Trappers And Fur Traders Who Opened The Old West

 

[Brokennock]

For general all around learning and education, buy the following book:

Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men by Carl P. Russel

A Guide To The Equipment Of the Trappers And Fur Traders Who Opened The Old West

Just curious because I don’t have that book (always had the impression it covered too late a period for me), what time period is being referred to? What time period and where is the author calling the "old west"?

 

[Johnny Tremain]

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index... one of these sieges,is a well proven design.

I went to Dixie to get one of these. It was way to soft for my liking.
I bought the Dixie Bowie, a copy of the Searles bowie made for Jim and Resin.
It is made of the finest steel 3 knige makers have ever seen (their words)

The later I found a first gen Davey Crockett Dickson knife. Thats real damascus.
Even the India made 4th gen Davey Crockett is a better knife to use, at the same price.

Dixie Bowie

Crockett Knife

 

[TDM]

There are quite a few good books that you can read to learn more about the period and accoutrements you’d like to copy. While there are a number of good sources, I think Crazy Crow Trading Post has about the best selection. They also publish a lot of these books.

 

[Brokennock]

Some of this seems later than the o.p. states, but I could be wrong on that.
Sorry, but the Dixie G.W. knife description sounds like marketing b.s. to me.
Beware using retailer info as research.

O.p. remember, some folks will use anything to justify what they see as "cool" to be h.c. Remember Occam's Razor.

 

[Loja man]

So, as far as the Daniel Boone knife goes….. their description is a bunch of phony baloney! In No way does it resemble a Sax or a Dirk. The description of the knife is eggs in moonshine!!
Carry on

 

[Red Owl]

There was a book, rather expensive- I can't recall the title but it dealt with the period, cost about $70 plus. Lots of photos. IN ANY EVENT, many knives were imported from England but for what you want- a lot were made by local black smiths. This means there were endless varieties. A lot (most) had a stick tang and an antler stub/crown was pretty common. What I think looks really neat is a crown with a brow tine cut off at about an inch and situated downward- to form sort of a guard- if that makes sense. I'd go with an 8-9" blade. I don't think clip points had become popular so a plain old pattern.

 

[Carteret Kid]

I suggest you check out Avalon Forge; Avalon Forge 18th Century Reproductions
Their kitchen knife is a close match for the basic Engilsh trade knife sold in vast numbers. When marketed to Indians, it was called a scalping knife. When sold to colonists it was called a butchers knife.
Price is only $12. They also carry axes and other plain tools from that era.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

their description is a bunch of phony baloney!

When I went there the guy told me it was a representation of a Hudson Bay trade knife.
According to him, Boon took it off a dead Indian, and wore it the rest of his days.
I still didnt buy it, its way too soft to use.

 

[tenngun]

Just curious because I don’t have that book (always had the impression it covered too late a period for me), what time period is being referred to? What time period and where is the author calling the "old west"?

Firearms traps and tools is about the Mountain Man era, 1810-1850 ( in the book) however Russell covers a hunk of time.
Spanish equipment, French and early english make up the book.
Almost 1/3 of the book covers axes and show styles and where they came from and gives up a good write up on trade knifes.

 

[Omahkapi'si]

Can't go wrong with 1 of each....

 

[Jaeger]

My opinion: Stay away from knives with hilts and drop points. If you want to see some period correct knives, go to Wick Ellerbe's page on the internet. Also, I've read that knives with antler handles were a rarity in the 1700's. They look cool and seem to be popular and you may want to use one anyway, but I don't think you can pretend they are historically correct.

 

[Brokennock]

My opinion: Stay away from knives with hilts and drop points. If you want to see some period correct knives, go to Wick Ellerbe's page on the internet. Also, I've read that knives with antler handles were a rarity in the 1700's. They look cool and seem to be popular and you may want to use one anyway, but I don't think you can pretend they are historically correct.

Not sure on the drop points. Certainly not for most English trade knife blades,,, but, there were sheepsfoot blade knives, and that is like a drop point. French trade knives were of a drop point design.

Definitely need to check out Wick Ellerbe's work, research and posts @LRB
As well as look for articles and internet posts from Ken Hamilton.

Agreed on the antler handles to an extent. I wouldn't go with a hard and definitive no as to their existence, but I would generally say no to there use in most reenacting.
Historically possible? Yes. Historically likely? Maybe.
Historically common in Colonial America? No. No evidence to support a common existence of large antler handled "rifleman's" knives.
Not even a lot of evidence to support many knives being made by local blacksmiths. They had better things to do and there were just so many import knives it wouldn't be worth it to pay the local guy what he would need to put aside his higher paying and more in demand work.

 

[Red Owl]

Well, to get back to your original question, I'd say a rifleman's knife and a Ft. Miegs type hatchet.

 

[Jaeger]

Not sure on the drop points. Certainly not for most English trade knife blades,,, but, there were sheepsfoot blade knives, and that is like a drop point. French trade knives were of a drop point design.

Definitely need to check out Wick Ellerbe's work, research and posts @LRB
As well as look for articles and internet posts from Ken Hamilton.

Agreed on the antler handles to an extent. I wouldn't go with a hard and definitive no as to their existence, but I would generally say no to there use in most reenacting.
Historically possible? Yes. Historically likely? Maybe.
Historically common in Colonial America? No. No evidence to support a common existence of large antler handled "rifleman's" knives.
Not even a lot of evidence to support many knives being made by local blacksmiths. They had better things to do and there were just so many import knives it wouldn't be worth it to pay the local guy what he would need to put aside his higher paying and more in demand work.

Okay, Nock, because of your response I now realize I'm using the wrong term for what I had in mind. You are right: a drop point was probably not uncommon....even some of my "historical" knives have a bit of a drop point. I NOW know that what I had in mind are CLIP blades, which I mistakenly thought were called drop points. A clip blade has sloping section nearer to the tip which angles or curves down to the tip, if I'm not mistaken. My modern Buck knife has a clip blade or point. I'm still learning!