Questions on the British Whitworth Rifle

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Hey all, recently my Grandfather made the decision to get a new muzzleloader. He wanted a flintlock but has since moved to wanting a Whitworth. So I have a few questions, Number one is can you buy pre made hexagonal bullets or do those have to be handmade. I can't find a mould anywhere on the internet. Secondly does the Whitworth load like a Pattern 1853 in the sense of a paper cartridge or swaged bullet or does it use patches ? Lastly has anyone ever used one for hunting especially with a Hi-Lux Scope in particular and is the Taylor Firearms reproduction good. They are only a 3 hour drive to Winchester, Virginia and I don't see Dixiegunworks with any for sale. Thank you to all who give information and input.
 
Pedersoli make a Whitworth rifle repro. and a hexagonal bullet mould. KAL Tool & Die in Canada also make a hex. bullet mould. Whitworth will however shoot cylindrical bullets - use soft lead so they expand to the hex bore on firing. Whitworth cartridges are complex. Majority use paper patched or grease groove bullets - with a variety of wads as suits personal preference. Plain card, felt, or a combination. Load powder, load wad(s), seat bullet.

You’ll need to source tools to cut hex wads and ideally a hex jag so you can adequately clean the barrel. Common practice with such rifles is to load powder and tight fitting wad, then clean and dry bore - the wad will protect the powder - finally seat the bullet.

Others in the US will be better placed to answer your further questions.

David
 
Here are a couple of my Parker-Hale Whitworth rifles - apart from the real thing, the best there ever was - my opinion only, of course.
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As Mr Minshall notes, a cylindrical bullet works just as well - watch Brett Gibbons of papercartridges in his article on Youtube.

As for making moulds, there are now a number of moulds around.
Peter Starley in UK and Hungary makes one. A gentleman on Jersey Channel Islands makes one. Both are around $300 or so. Pedersoli make one, but reading over on the Whitworth FB pages, bullets made with them do not always fit, and resizing a hexagonal bullet is not possible.
This is a multi-groove Lyman bullet. Paper-patched bullets also work just fine.
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Here is a cylindrical bullet recovered from the backstop after shooting with my first Whitworth rifle - note the shape.
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You'll probably have better luck finding a used - hopefully lightly-used - Parker-Hale rifle - look for one with a serial number under 9000 or so. Roger Hale excused the lack of delivery of my first rifle by saying that the demand in the USA was making finding one in UK difficult. It took two years to deliver mine from placing the order....

Lots of posters here shoot one or other versions of the Whitworth rifle, but only one I've ever seen copied those that went to the CSA - two bands and a short, snub-nosed muzzle overhang made them look decidedly different to the three-band military match rifle replicas like mine, EuroArms' and Pedersoli's.

As for the six-sided wad-cutter - Peter Dyson here in UK makes one for around $50 + shipping, but some handy people report making them from a modified socket from an automotive socket set - not sure of the price though. The Polisar Brothers out of California and New Mexico shot buffalo with theirs and reported the fact in Muzzle Blasts about fifteen years ago - so that big bullet certainly does the job.
 
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Slight ? difference between a flintlock & a Whitworth ? .Scopes ? Oh well its your gun . Re killing ability 530 Grn plus lumps of lead will kill things Iv'e shot similar 451 rifles for that purpose . But it does have a rainbow trajectory , its a heavy bugger to carry ,and shooting game at great ranges is questionable on Many grounds ..
Round bullets did get used just fine & the sights where marked H & C to compensate . As a hunting rifle at anything other than short range its overkill . Unless you live in a featurless desert your not going to See any game anyway . (Locally its considered 30 yards is the usual range & Iv'e shot deer from the hip as the deer was above me in a thin gully .,I did use a mechanically fitted projectile though a 24 bore two grouve belted ball with a pitch of one in 60".(Not sure who made it it was old and the rust obscured the makers name if any was there) .. . Anyway that's my view on on your plan.
Regards Rudyard
 
Dixie Gun Works has a good selection of Whitworth accessories. They have in stock a bullet swage, sight accessories and most any other accessories needed. I simply used conventional .458 cast bullets with the base band and one driving band sized to .451. It starts easily and shoots well. Do not be confused by advice from those who complicate shooting a Whitworth rifle. It is easier than most say. You do not need heavy loads of power to shoot targets at 100 or 200 yards.
 
Dixie Gun Works has a good selection of Whitworth accessories. They have in stock a bullet swage, sight accessories and most any other accessories needed. I simply used conventional .458 cast bullets with the base band and one driving band sized to .451. It starts easily and shoots well. Do not be confused by advice from those who complicate shooting a Whitworth rifle. It is easier than most say. You do not need heavy loads of power to shoot targets at 100 or 200 yards.
I would assume it probably isn't too different from a .577 Enfield or am I wrong in that assumption ?
 
I’m not familiar with the .577. I came upon this Whitworth in a trade and after doing a considerable amount of homework determined that it is simply a muzzle loading rifle. Treat it as that and keep it simple. This can get as complicated as you can afford.
 
I’m not familiar with the .577. I came upon this Whitworth in a trade and after doing a considerable amount of homework determined that it is simply a muzzle loading rifle. Treat it as that and keep it simple. This can get as complicated as you can afford.
Thanks for the input I've been watching videos on YouTube and people make it seem like this rifle was a space age device.
 
I would assume it probably isn't too different from a .577 Enfield or am I wrong in that assumption ?
Principles are similar - particularly if you’re familiar with using the Burton style Minie bullet in the Enfield. The most successful Whitworth rifle shooter I know (medal winning in long range competition) uses a cylindrical paper patched bullet with hollow base, sat directly on the powder.

Fouling control with the Whitworth (and other small-bore rifles) can be an issue, and many will clean between shots by:
  • After firing, wipe the barrel down to the breech. (Optional - return to firing point and cap off to ensure the flash hole is clear). Load powder, wad if used, and bullet.
  • After firing, load powder and tight fitting hexagonal wad. Wipe the barrel clean; the wad will protect the powder from moisture. Seat the bullet.
Like the Minie, the bullet should be a snug slip fit to the bore and not require forcing down the barrel.

Beyond the novelty of the hexagonal bore, management of the Whitworth is no different to other contemporary small-bore rifles.

David
 
I believe that half the mystique of the Whitworth was derived from its initial uncanny accuracy, by the standards of the day. Certainly, harassing fire, sufficient to cause fatalities, became part and parcel of infantry-v-artillery during the Crimean War, when one astute young British officer gathered a bunch of his best rifle shots, using the new-fangled Pritchett-bulleted rifles, and played merry hell with Russian gunners over half a mile away, driving them from the field.

However, the rifle of the day was not quite good enough, shooting that huge Pritchett/Minié bullet, for the very best of accuracy, whereas the Whitworth plainly was, as proven in comparison tests at extended ranges.

And then in the American Civil War, their usually-fatal use on selected targets brought a new dimension to the battlefield, as Messrs Reynold and Sedgwick, and no doubt more than few others found out to their cost. Even at 800 yards or so, the danger zone of a well-aimed Whitworth rifle was sufficient to make standing still in full view a final act. General Sedgwick was even advised to move along, as that every officer who had stood where he was standing on the previous day had been killed or injured...half a minute later, that fatal dull thump was heard.

Back to the present day and in America, where the Civil War is not only endlessly reenacted, but discussed and argued over on a daily basis, there are a few actual physical survivors for those awful days in the form of actual Whitworth rifles with provenance of use - fetching not tens of thousands, but hundreds of thousands of dollars to collectors and very lucky [and rich] shooters who care to load and fire these incredible relics.

For most of us, a replica is the nearest that we'll ever get to one, not that they were exactly replicas in the first place. True, rifles from the 'lesser-known' gunmakers who 'borrowed' Whitworth's idea of hexagonal rifling - Kerr, Beasely and maybe others I wot not of - can sometimes be found in the USA, but the real thing, with that famous sheaf of corn trademark, will always be very special.

I'll note that, in my opinion, the Parker-Hale Whitworth-rifled match rifle has never been equalled, and it should be eagerly sought-after. The johnny-come-lately products of Euroarms [Dixie] and Pedersoli can also be good products, although there have been vague mutterings off-stage about the fit and finish of the Pedersoli product from people posting here, and on yotube. Note that the new Pedersoli rifle will certainly be more expensive than any Parker-Hale I've ever encountered, here in UK or over in the US or Canada.

This rifle, BTW, is forty-one years old.

The buyer is the final arbiter.

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If you're starting out today it's easy to get a comparable rifle and stick a new barrel on it so that it shoots like the Whitworth rifles did. It won't be a modern day replica of a Whitworth and will cost a whit less, suggesting a name I may adopt for mine.
 
If you're starting out today it's easy to get a comparable rifle and stick a new barrel on it so that it shoots like the Whitworth rifles did. It won't be a modern day replica of a Whitworth and will cost a whit less, suggesting a name I may adopt for mine.
Rice will build a .40, or 45 caliber match grade barrel to fit the Thompson Center Renegade, Hawken and others. Bobby Hoyt can do similar stuff. Oregon Gun Works will provide barrels for such projects as well. There is something though, about the style of the Whitworth, and the British target rifles by Gibbs, Rigby and others. Beautiful rifles and really well suited to hunting use in my opinion. Don’t have one yet but it’s on the back burner for now…
 
I'd just like to add that Mr Idaho Lewis seems to do pretty well with a US- made rifle and selection of US-made barrels, with results far better than those achieved by any Whitworth rifle on record, AFAIK.
Yes he undoubtedly has made some fine shooting, but I’m not sure what data you have used to compare with the Whitworth rifle and come to your conclusion. There is much on record with regards to Whitworth - Besides the official trials, there’s the 20 shot (at each distance) competitive gunmakers trials by the NRA(UK) for selection of the Queen’s Prize Rifle in the 1860s, shooting at 500 & 1000 yards - these like much of Idaho Lewis shoots I have seen used rests. Then we have the Elcho Shield records where each team member fired 15 shots each at each distance 800, 900 and 1000 yards - no artificial support (including slings) being permitted. In modern times we have since 1990 the Long Range Rifles Branch of the MLAGB and their Whitworth cup fired prone with sling support and 15 shots at 600 yards.

This is in no way to decry Idaho Lewis achievements - but I fail to see what information is being used to compare with ‘any Whitworth rifle on record.’

David
 
I take your valid points about present-day shooting of BP ML rifles at extended ranges, and learn accordingly. I apologise for seeming to denigrate the great long-range muzzleloading shooters whose excellent shooting you note.
 
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I did write a response No one considered it . I did once have a WW given me I sold it at Dixons unfired . They are a horse for a particular course long range but ill suited for hunting . Where I once carried my 451 with just 15 or so grains & a ball since as I sought just Grouse & Frankolin ect. Though on that occasion I met a curious bull Moose ' Up close & personal ' But it was diplomacy not a ball that got me out of that one (Talking to it till it seemingly figured he wasn't sure about me & took off ! . Rather to my great relief I must add , to join the Cow in the river. (Mosley Creek BC ) Rudyard
 
I take your valid points about present-day shooting of BP ML rifles at extended ranges, and learn accordingly. I apologise for seeming to denigrate the great long-range muzzleloading shooters whose excellent shooting you note.
Other then the LRR Branch of MLAGB, I was primarily referring to 19thC BP ML data sources for shooting at long range with the Whitworth rifle, not ‘present-day’. On at least one occasion for example the entire English and Scottish teams in the Elcho Shield match in the early 1860s used Whitworth rifles. I never saw any denigration of shooters, or need for apology - what I didn’t see was what data was being used to make any valid comparison to lead to your conclusion. Some with a passing interest in a subject or without wider access to reference material will read a statement and note ’that’s interesting, I didn’t know that’ and pass on, possibly later repeating ’something they read’. Sometimes statements need challenging to tease out the detail so we all learn. Enough.

Notwithstanding that, the Whitworth was outperformed by other muzzle loading rifles in the 19thC and faded away from use, being supplanted by for example the Gibbs-Metford and later Rigby rifles.

David
 
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In the distant past, some 60 years ago I did some shooting with a Whitworth target rifle that was in excellent condition; it belonged to Mick Smith who was the owner of Smith’s Sports Store in Sydney. He had entrusted it to the late Linton McKenzie (later of engraving fame in the USA), as I remember it shot very well, we were using cylindrical bullets.
What I do remember very well was the case and the quality of the rifle and it’s gear, but no mould, I guess that the original owner could afford factory projectiles.
The long ladder sight that could be mounted either above the pistol grip or just in front of the butt plate was unbelievably well made.
Mac wanted one so he took the original to Easdales (a local firm of instrument makers), for a quote on making a copy.
They could do it they said but if he wanted the same accuracy, which was all surfaces within 1/10,000 of an inch then their estimate was £1,000 and with silver vernier range scales, not platinum as on the original.
Needless to say Mac didn’t order one as £1,000 was more than my yearly income as a soldier and much more than Mac’s as he was still an apprentice.
Later I had a Gibbs target rifle but it’s bore was not very good and I let it go to a collector of early target rifles.
 
The Parker Hale Whitworth rifle that I shoot exhibited vertical stringing. I bedded it with Brownell’s Acraglas so that all bearing services of the breech area fit evenly and squarely. The tang is fully supported underneath and is not stressed when the tang screw is tightened. The barrel is fully supported underneath in the breech area as well as underneath all three barrel bands. The barrel is tightly clamped. The bolster underneath the nipple does not bear down on the lockplate. If this is not considered cricket by the old rules I really don’t care. This rifle shoots groups at 50 and 100 yards that make me very happy and that is what’s this is all about. Matter of fact, it astonished me with the way it shoots and it wasn’t even made in England. It’s a Euro Arms and very well made and finished. Cheers and all that.
 
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