Quick question on ammo/twist rate...

[bobznew]

Hey guys, I have a question regarding types of ammo and the twist rate of rifling. As I mentioned in my other thread, "Absolute newbie...", I am looking to purchase a traditional percussion M/L for whitetail deer hunting. My question is, which type of ammo should give me better ballistics/trajectory, the round ball or the conical? Are both types of projectiles capable of being placed accuarately, with equal killing power, at longer ranges? Or is one type superior to the other at longer ranges?

Also, I notice that the 1 in 60 and 1 in 66 twist rates are designed to be used with the PRB. Can the conical be used with this twist rate, or does it require a tighter twist for better ballistic stability? And vica versa for the PRB, can it be shot out of a barrel with tighter (i.e. 1 in 48 or more twist) twist?

Thanks in advance for your help again. Everyone here seems to be so nice and helpful. This is definitely a refreshing place to go.

 

[paulvallandigham]

1:?60 is the correct twist for a .50 cal. round ball gun. There are some conicals out there that may shoot okay in these guns, but that is a fairly show rate of twist. You will find most .50 caliber rifles with a 1:48 " ROT. That is fast enough to shoot both RB and conicals okay, if you limit the weight and length of the conical.

 

[sidelock]

Just go for PRB. :thumbsup:

 

[playfarmers]

I have used muzzleloaders with the 1 in 48" twist in .45, .50, and .54 rifles. They all shot round balls very well and medium weight conicals too. After shooting many whitetails with bullets and round balls, I now only use round balls for hunting and targets. The 1 in 60" twist are for round balls, but will also shoot short conicals like the bal-et's. I sugest that you get a .50 or .54 with a 1 in 48" or 1 in 60" twist and shoot round balls and forget about bullets.

 

[Fullstock58]

Whitetail are not hard to kill, Round Balls have been doing it here in the USA since the begining of the european invasion. RB's have better shorter range trajectory, use less weight, needs a patch, they require slower twist rates.
Conical bullets weight more, do not require patches, will retain better energy and need faster twist rates.

The twist rate that TC uses is a compromise, that will allow both RB's and conicals to be shot from the same gun, and with both projectiles accuracy can be very good but not optimum.

Round balls are more historically correct for a plains style gun vs a conical that is more in line with the civil war years.

I like RB's

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

The 1 in 66 twist rate is for PRB's. Patched round balls are very capable stoppers at short to moderate ranges. Most shooters don't want to only wound an animal, so they limit their shots to between 75-100 yards to ensure a clean kill.

Conicals, or Maxi-Balls as some folks refer to them, are heavy weight slugs with alot of stopping power. These should only be fired with a 1 in 48 twist or faster barrel for the stability/accuracy factors that you already mentioned.

If as a newbie, you want to try them both, then get a gun with a 1 in 48 twist barrel. That's how I solved my dilema and I never looked back.

I've read your other thoughts with regards to which gun to buy on the other thread and I'm going to say something radical: You will be a better ML with a $295.00 trade rifle and lots of dough to spend on all the practice needed to become really good, than you will by buying a $700.00 rifle that you can't afford to "feed"! The trade rifle that I'm mentioning is made by Lyman, comes with the 1 in 48 twist and a great warranty, and is available in both .50 and .54 Perc. or Flint, left or right handed.

I have two of these .50 cal. trade rifles. One for me and one for my Son. Fancy, no! But they can hit! Did a single seedless grape at 25 yards in April :winking: .

For $700.00 you could buy a rifle and two barrels. One with a nice fast twist for Maxi's and the other a nice slow twist for PRB's. Don't jump too fast and make a hasty decision. Instead, go to the ranges where these firearms are being used and strike-up a conversation with some of the shooters. Most will be eager for you to try their rifle. The warm weather is here...bring a little cooler with you when you go to hang-out at the BP range and give away a couple of cold drinks and make some new friends in the process :winking: .

Remember that when it comes to Black, you have to do it, not just read about others doing it. And you have to be comfortable and the gun has to fit your body. Sometimes a cheap gun with a good fit will outshoot an expensive gun with a lousy fit :shocked2: . That's what happened to me!

Again, welcome to the Forum!

Dave

 

[bobznew]

Once again, I really appreciate all the advice from everyone. It that the majority (judging from other threads, not just this one) tends to go with the PRB rather than the conical. And as far as accuracy at "long" range goes, that isn't that much of a concern. A "long" shot for me would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 65-75 yards. Sure, I have plenty of places to hunt long range (300-400 yard shots), but that's with a 7 Mag, and it's not really hunting. More like target practice, only using a deer instead of a paper target. With a M/L, I want things to be SPORTING. That's why I'm convinced that I want a traditional blackpowder rifle, and not one of the new, modern rifles with synthetic stocks, stainless barrels and scopes. In my opinion, all that technology defeats the purpose. In my home state of Mississippi, we have 2 weeks of deer hunting season that is reserved specifically for primitive weapons. In my opinion, there's not very much "primitive" about these new M/L's that I see used on most deer hunting videos. If I'm going to go "primitive", I want to do it RIGHT. After all, it's not all about how far I can shoot a deer. If I wanted to simply shoot a deer a long ways off, I'd just shoot my 7 Mag! I want it to be sporting; I want to do it the way men did it 200 years ago!

Again, thanks very much for all the advice. You guys are a great source of information, not to mention some of the most polite and kindest people I've met on the internet. You can usually tell about someone's character by how they treat a newbie on a message forum. I have felt nothing but completely welcomed since I came here, and I thank all of you for that. You all are certainly a tribute and an asset to the wonderful world of firearms.

 

[Zonie]

Interesting question.

The other folks gave you some very good answers, and I'm pleased that you enjoy our forum here.

As you said your shooting in the 65-75 yard range, I did some figuring for a .50 cal rifle shooting a patched roundball and a typical slug based on some data from the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook. I ran the numbers for 80 yards distance with the gun sighted in at 50 yards.

Using a fairly stout load of 90 grains of Goex FFg in a 1:28 inch 1:48 twist barrel, the roundball has a muzzle velocity of 1651 FPS (1072 Ft/Lb).
at 80 yards, the velocity has dropped to 1027 FPS (415 ft/lb) and is hitting 2.8 inches low.

The same barrel/powder load shooting a 370 grain Lyman Maxi has a muzzle velocity of 1344 FPS (1484 ft/lb). At 80 yards, the velocity has dropped to 1081 FPS (965 ft/lb) and is hitting 2.8 inches low. (note: this isn't exactly correct as my ballistics program thinks the gun is shooting a .490 diameter 370 grain slug with spherical ends on it).

If your one who is caught up in the Ft/Lb energy thing most modern shooters look at, the slug is the obvious choice but before you rule out the roundball you should remember that the 80 yard energy is about the same as a .45 Colt Long at point blank range (and the ball is larger in diameter so the damage zone is larger).

zonie

 

[wildeagle]

First off , welcome, I'm sure you will enjoy time spent here. I've been here about 6 months and could'nt have found a better bunch of guys.Kudos for trying black powder, you won't regret it, except it IS[url] addicting.PBR[/url] is good choice, slow twist,alot of the fun is working up a good combination. 50. cal. is more than adequate for deer size quarry,54. if bigger game is hunted. Here in PA. most shots on deer are 50 to 60 yards and you will find that accuracy at that range is more than needed. When you harvest your first white tail, the feeling is one that you won't forget!!! Perc. is good choice to begin,less muss and fuss, but be warned if you experiment with flint you might never go back. just my .02 cents again WELCOME to camp. Wild Eagle

 

[boar]

Well if you want to do it like they did 200yrs ago, you might as well get a flinter and do it right. When you go for the gun and decide you are going to shoot RB, try to get the deep rifling as a lot of barrels have shallow rifling to shoot the max-balls,they can't upset into the deep riflings.Example, my 34" 54 GM barrel has 12thousands cut riflings and 1-70 twist. Not made to shoot maxis as they won't seal and too slow of a twist. The deeper rifling will grip the ball and patch better, allowing you to shoot heavier charges without stripping the ball. A flinter is more of a challenge, This is what black powder is all about. Dilly

 

[Slamfire]

Another little tidbit of information about stability. It is really based on revolutions per whatever time rate you choose.
By loading a faster twist barrel lightly, you can generally get good accuracy with PRB. In a barrel with a slower twist you can stabilize some conicals by increasing the powder charge. The problem with the latter, is that shooting heavier bullets, faster, adds up to more recoil. Since you are already shooting a 7mm Mag. you should be able to handle that, as the velocity of the recoil is less than with smokeless powder. A 48" twist works well with both PRBs and conicals, without using the humongous powder charges the boys with the unmentionable muzzleloaders seem so enamored of. :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

The Formula for choosing a Round Ball Rate of twist is caliber times 120. Example: .40 cal. x 120 = 48". Now, that is not the way to figure Rate of Twist for conicals. Conicals are based on the length of the bearing surface of a particular bullet against the rifling of a given twist for that caliber. There are charts to use to determine the best Rate of Twist for conicals. I don't know any better way.

If you are going to commit to shooting Traditional ML firearms, then round ball is the projectile to use, and keeping your shots at 100 yds and under is the challenge of the sport. If you are hunting forests, or river bottoms, the ground cover rarely allows a shot much beyond 40 yds. Only when you are huning meadows, or grasslands can you expect longer shots, and even there, archers seem to get themself near enough to take killing shots. There is really no excuse for not using a ML rifle even in open country. Will you see game that you might have taken with a high powered rifle get away, because you didn't get close enough? SURE YOU WILL! But anyone who has hunted much of anything has missed shots, or shooting oportunities for one reason or another. I sat in a deer stand all day, and finally just had to relieve my bladder. I climbed down, and was getting my relief, when the only deer I was to see in three days of hunting came walking up to where I was standing. My gun was unprimed, and on the ground besides me, because I had safely lowered it down from my treestand before I climbed down. One of my buddies told me I had the wrong pistol in my hand when the deer came by!

If game doesn't get away, you don't have those " The-one-that-got-away " Stories that make everyone so happy around a campfire each yea, so happy it happened to you rather than to them! :blah: :thumbsup:

 

[stacks]

Howdy Paul, "The one that got away", Man, if that aint the truth. Been bow huntin for years and lost count of how many deers I just had to watch walk through the woods. Started hunting with a ML PRB a few years back after effortlessly killing two deer one afternoon with a modern rifle. I'm not too embarrassed to admit I've still not killed a deer with that rifle, but, I'll bet I'm a better woodsman because of it.

Mine has a 48" twist and I can keep the groups with in a 3-4 inch grouping at 40 yards. I still cant seem to get em any closer than that. I thought of replacing the barrel with a 60 or 70 inch twist, any thoughts?????

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I'd say that there is more hunters here that have had mishaps like that than is willing to admit. Since I've got more than my share of whitetail anyway I'll own up to 'mishaps' multiple times. :haha:

 

[paulvallandigham]

That 1:48 should be good enough for one hole groups off a bench at 50 yds. with either a .45 or .50 caliber rifle. In .54 that group might be 1 1/2 inches, but no bigger. Check your patches to see what is happening to them. If you are using FFFg powder, change to FFg and try that. Use a chronograph to find out if your loading technique is responsible for wide variations in velocity from shot to shot. Buy and Read Dutch Schoultz'a Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System, at[url] www.Blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com[/url]. It the best #15.00 you can spend. Measure everthing. Practice, and ask someone to watch how you mount the gun to your shoulder every time you shoot, even at the bench. In bench shooting, rest the barrel on a sandbag about 8-10 inches behind the muzzle, and mark the spot so you can be consistent in placing the barrel on the bag. If you can't do that for some reason, then the next best place to rest the gun on a bench rest is with the rest right against the front of the trigger guard.

Always first establish the gun's inate accuracy by shooting off a rest, and then work on your off-hand shooting stance, and techniques. You can expect groups to open some at 50 yards when you shoot off-hand, but with correct practice, you can get it down to the 2-3 inch range, and sometimes much better. I find using either a walking stick, or taking advantage of any tree near me as a standing rest lets me deliver benchrest accuracy in the field, on game. But even that takes correct practice.