Ramrod difference??

[yonderin]

I agree with your statement and might add that anything added or taken away will effect how a rifle performs.If you can't take something away you can cancel it out by adding weight to the barrel. A thick heavy barrel is used in target rifles because of this very thing. Muzzle loading rifles by their nature are heavy barreled therefore It is logical to think that something the weight of a ram rod should make little difference to the accuracy of the rifle? Am I right? I don't know but I don't worry about the weight of a ram rod when I am shooting>

It wouldn't seem likely just due to the weight which should remain consistent particularly with a non-wooden ramrod. But anything else that might affect the barrel vibrations could.

Right off the top of my head, I can't recall the optimum spot in the barrel harmonics (whip) the projectile should leave the muzzle.

Most important, it's consistent from shot to shot. Whether 5 minutes or 5 days between shots. Anything that changes that should have an effect, even if it still performs to our satisfaction. A number of factors affecting internal ballistics.

 

[Shortfingers]

On a half stock muzzleloader, have you noticed a difference in accuracy with the ramrod in the thimbles vs out of the thimbles when shooting? As soon as I get a chance to shoot again I’ll try it myself. Until then, I’d like to hear from y’all.

I’ve never noticed a difference unless you leave a jag on the end or the ramrod somehow extends past the end of the barrel.

 

[LME]

It wouldn't seem likely just due to the weight which should remain consistent particularly with a non-wooden ramrod. But anything else that might affect the barrel vibrations could.

Right off the top of my head, I can't recall the optimum spot in the barrel harmonics (whip) the projectile should leave the muzzle.

Most important, it's consistent from shot to shot. Whether 5 minutes or 5 days between shots. Anything that changes that should have an effect, even if it still performs to our satisfaction. A number of factors affecting internal ballistics.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by weight? I should have been more clear.
I was refering to the thickness of the barrel not the weight of the ram rod. most muzzle loading Rifles have a thick barrel which does nullify a lot of vibration in the barrel which is what harmonics creates and it can effect accuracy. I used a bull barrel on My Anshultz rifle which I used in competition . The only reason was the bull barrel toned down the harmonics. Muzzle loaders work on the same principle.Does it get rid of all the vibration? I say no it doesn't but then again nothing is 100% even tuners on barrel can't eliminate it all but it can get it so close you will never know it is there! It becomes a non_factor!

 

[yonderin]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by weight? I should have been more clear.
I was refering to the thickness of the barrel not the weight of the ram rod. most muzzle loading Rifles have a thick barrel which does nullify a lot of vibration in the barrel which is what harmonics creates and it can effect accuracy. I used a bull barrel on My Anshultz rifle which I used in competition . The only reason was the bull barrel toned down the harmonics. Muzzle loaders work on the same principle.Does it get rid of all the vibration? I say no it doesn't but then again nothing is 100% even tuners on barrel can't eliminate it all but it can get it so close you will never know it is there! It becomes a non_factor!

Sorry, since the OP was about the effect of a RR I kept on going down that path.

Absolutely, barrel profile affects potential accracy. A heavier barrel reduces barrel whip, I also read that a shorter barrel can produce better accuracy than a longer of similar profile. Using the same barrel, change something very much and noticeable effects may be found. My very first load I made for my .30-06 produced a 3 shot cloverleaf at 100. Fairly mild load and I never saw quite the same with different loads.
But when I found a load that produced 1 MOA, that was always good enough for my hunting purposes.

My overall point was that anything that affects barrel harmonics may affect repeatability. Even the effect of a ramrod stowed under the barrel as per the norm.

As long as the shooter is happy with his results, it may or may not be enough of a factor to be concerned about. But something to bear in mind if you're trying to shoot the fleas off a dog's arse way out back of beyond.

 

[Patched]

Ah, my fellow theoretical physicists, articulate forumites, nimrods and know-it-alls in denial…here comes my anecdotal evidence on the subject…
As the owner of no less than 13 half-stocked muzzleloaders/inlines all with open/aperture sights…accuracy is not effected to any degree that can definitively be attributed to the ramrod in or out of its furrels below the barrel…In other words theory says yes it does…but iron sights, round balls and patches , sabots , powder lot variations all prevent knowing definitively if it is in fact the ramrod…because they shoot accurately within their limited range and purpose.

 

[LME]

Ah, my fellow theoretical physicists, articulate forumites, nimrods and know-it-alls in denial…here comes my anecdotal evidence on the subject…
As the owner of no less than 13 half-stocked muzzleloaders/inlines all with open/aperture sights…accuracy is not effected to any degree that can definitively be attributed to the ramrod in or out of its furrels below the barrel…In other words theory says yes it does…but iron sights, round balls and patches , sabots , powder lot variations all prevent knowing definitively if it is in fact the ramrod…because they shoot accurately within their limited range and purpose.

I know very little about muzzle loading rifles? I bought my M.L. to hunt M.L. season that is all I wanted to do. I have owned several and all of them were accurate with or without the ram rod attached to the rifle. I have worked on several in my shop and they all were accurate as well. I can say that I am obsessed with obtaining every bit of accuracy out of a fire arm regardless of whether it is a modern rifle or a muzzle loader. I know for a fact that a M.L. rifle can shoot a one hole three shot group at a hundred yards using iron sights. I also know there are some people that can't do it with a modern scoped rifle? Everybody has a talent of some sort but sadly to say everyone doesn't find theirs?

 

[wiscoaster]

Ah, my fellow theoretical physicists, articulate forumites, nimrods and know-it-alls in denial…here comes my anecdotal evidence on the subject…
As the owner of no less than 13 half-stocked muzzleloaders/inlines all with open/aperture sights…accuracy is not effected to any degree that can definitively be attributed to the ramrod in or out of its furrels below the barrel…In other words theory says yes it does…but iron sights, round balls and patches , sabots , powder lot variations all prevent knowing definitively if it is in fact the ramrod…because they shoot accurately within their limited range and purpose.

Actual experience beats theory any day of the week IMHO.

 

[LME]

Actual experience beats theory any day of the week IMHO.

Yes it generally does win out! I will say one thing Patched said that was dead on the money,that being in a M.L.s range they are accurate enough.

 

[Patched]

I know very little about muzzle loading rifles? I bought my M.L. to hunt M.L. season that is all I wanted to do. I have owned several and all of them were accurate with or without the ram rod attached to the rifle. I have worked on several in my shop and they all were accurate as well. I can say that I am obsessed with obtaining every bit of accuracy out of a fire arm regardless of whether it is a modern rifle or a muzzle loader. I know for a fact that a M.L. rifle can shoot a one hole three shot group at a hundred yards using iron sights. I also know there are some people that can't do it with a modern scoped rifle? Everybody has a talent of some sort but sadly to say everyone doesn't find theirs?

The suspense is killing me….were those one hole ML groups with iron sights at 100yds shot with the ramrod in its storage place on the gun or off the gun?…

 

[Ditt44]

If you are going to be hunting with your ML, it makes sense to practice with the rod in-place. Keep every single variable as similar as possible. I use a bronze range rod and never pull the 'field' rod when at the range.

 

[LME]

The suspense is killing me….were those one hole ML groups with iron sights at 100yds shot with the ramrod in its storage place on the gun or off the gun?…

I honestly don't remember but I do believe it wasn't put back on the rifle between shots? I only recall that Dr. Frasier had a rifle range well set up with concrete shooting bench and stations out to 300 yards. There were five or six of his friends there that were all doctors and I only knew a couple of them. They were shooting modern scoped rifles. I was the only one with a M.L. rifle. The only thing I was thinking about was ,"I hope they are better doctors than they are shooters"! LOL!

 

[Wirehair]

Patch pretty well nailed it. Many factors affect barrel harmonics, and therefore accuracy. I don't have a half stock rifle, but if I did and this was a concern, I'd shoot a group with the ramrod in and the muzzle on the bag. Then I'd shoot a group with the ramrod in and the forend on the bag. Then repeat again with the ramrod out. There may be a difference, but then the question becomes is it the ramrod ot the rest? Easy to go down a rabbit hole.

 

[Patched]

A word about sights…
I have several FWB Olympic competition air rifles, trigger weights in ounces, precision aperture sights….variable aperture in both rear and front sight…they are absolutely precise when aiming at round black bull targets…when aiming at non round black bull target targets they lose some of their precision…
Applied to muzzleloaders, peep sights are the next best thing to scopes for precise aiming. As the target distance increases, detecting sighting error diminishes (round black bulls help center in the round peep).
My point is, I’m limited by my sights to achieve small groups at longer distances…to the OP’s question was it sighting error or that ramrod changing my barrel harmonics ..theory says both…I say I’ll never know and will never care