range of a .58

[Brasilikilt]

Hey there

Right now I'm saving for a Leman Trade rifle. I'm leaning towards the .58 I'm just wondering what I should expect in terms of range and accuracy if I jump from .45 to .58
I know Civil war rifled muskets firing a .58 minie ball could consistantly get reasonable accuracy out to 100-150 yds. Can I expect similar ranges with a PRB? Farther?

Thanks for any advice

Iain

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Round balls are a pretty poor ballistic form. A .58 will retain velocity and energy somewhat better than a .50 but not a whole lot better. From the first edition Lyman Black Powder Handbook comparing a .50 caliber 32" barrel to a .58 cal 32", with 100 grains 3f in the .50 and 140 grains 2f in the .58 we get muzzle velocities of 1978 fps for the .50 and 1506 fps in the .58.
Muzzle energy runs 1561 ft.lb in .50 and 1308 in .58 caliber.
Energy retained at 100 yards is 501 ft.lb for the .50 cal and 544 ft.lb. in the .58. As you see, no great difference.
Now a .58 caliber "can" be more powerful if you're willing to load up 200 grains of powder. The bigger bore will handle more powder efficiently, but you gain that advantage only when you surpass the maximum efficiency point of the smaller bore, say about 120 grains in .50 caliber and 140 grains in a .54.
If you're not willing to stand behind that much recoil or your gun isn't rated for such loads then you're just kidding yourself regarding the power of big bores. 100 yard shots with a .58 will have to be just as well placed as with a .50.
As to accuracy, one caliber is about as accurate as another. Work up a good accurate and comfortable load, pick your shots carefully, don't try to stretch the range beyond 100 yards and you'll be happy with your .58, just don't get to thinking it's anything like a .375 H&H Mag, even though it may kick like one. :grin:

 

[roundball]

Hey there

Right now I'm saving for a Leman Trade rifle. I'm leaning towards the .58 I'm just wondering what I should expect in terms of range and accuracy if I jump from .45 to .58
I know Civil war rifled muskets firing a .58 minie ball could consistantly get reasonable accuracy out to 100-150 yds. Can I expect similar ranges with a PRB? Farther?
Thanks for any advice
Iain

I've enjoyed a .58cal for a couple years and think it's an inherently accurate caliber...I only use it for eastern whitetails in thick woods and the farthest buck I've shot has only been 50yds, which is what I have it zeroed for...and I've shot it enough at 100yds to know it holds it's accuracy fine at 100yds without a problem.

The .570/279grn ball is a powerhouse and I wouldn't hesitate to take a 125yd shot at a deer with my rifle, if I had the best possible hunting conditions such as a standing broadside shot, soild rest, good lighting, unobstructed view into the heart, and time to set up the shot.

The issue is always getting the ball into the boiler-room...not if it'll do the job if we put it there.

So IMO, you really just have to determine the maximum distance at which you can repeatedly hit a cantaloupe with a patched round ball out of an open sighted muzleloader under hunting conditions.

:thumbsup:

 

[Brasilikilt]

Thanks alot guys

If I get the .58 sounds like I'm gonna need to get a few cans of the FF Goex!!

I generally don't shoot farther than 100 yds because I am such a lousy shot :shake:

I keep reading again and again about woodsmen carrying beefy large bore rifles into the west.
Since I've never shot anything larger than a .50, and want to get the same bruised shoulders they must have had back in the day, I'll go with the .58 and see what it can do......I just need to build it first

thanks for all the help

Iain

 

[paulvallandigham]

Look at the velocity and energy tables in the Lyman Reloading manual. You will see that you start getting very inefficient adding more powder after a certain load. You just don't get the added energy down range, much less the extra velocity that you get compared to the smaller amounts of BP. A reasonable charge for a .58 will run around 80-100 grains of FFg. More than that and its burning outside the muzzle, and contributing only recoil to your shoulder. The diameter of the ball and its weight have more to do with how deep it will penetrate flesh at distance, than the velocity it leaves the barrel. A healthy shove from a .58 should be expected; a teeth rattling kick should not. Itws God's way of telling you that you are wasting powder, and dreaming about " knock down power " that does not exist. A .58 will kill Elk, deer, obviously, Bear, Caribou, and moose, all day long, provided you place the shot in the vital areas. Concentrate on accuracy and shot placement, and forget trying to make it in to a .460 Weatherby Magnum. 100 yards is 300 feet, and that is a long way to shoot at any animal. If you can't get closer to an animal than that, it should because you are on one ridge and the animal is on another, and not for any other reason. ( ie. you can't fly!) I saw a film of a Elk or caribou hunt by modern riflemen, and while the camera was focusing on the animal for the 250 yd. plus shot, a coyote ran between the camera and the animal, about 50 yds from the animal. You can see the animal turn and watch the coyote, but it was total oblivious to the long range shooters. Every deer I have shot has been inside 50 yds, and one was only 3 steps away when I shot it. You should not feel handicapped using PRB in a .58 for hunting, nor should you think that you have to have a gun that will kill at 150 yds. Your .58 will do that, and then some, but you owe it to you and the animals you hunt to get closer.

 

[cayugad]

Hey there

Right now I'm saving for a Leman Trade rifle. I'm leaning towards the .58 I'm just wondering what I should expect in terms of range and accuracy if I jump from .45 to .58
I know Civil war rifled muskets firing a .58 minie ball could consistantly get reasonable accuracy out to 100-150 yds. Can I expect similar ranges with a PRB? Farther?

Thanks for any advice

Iain

The .58 caliber I have is very accurate. It has a 1-70 twist and a 32" barrel. Loaded properly this thing is not only accurate but deadly. That big roundball carries a lot of down range thump.

Since I have open sights on the rifle I limit my self hunting to 100 yards but intend to practice much further for the fun of it.

I think it is a great caliber and for a traditional rifle one of the best for all around hunting out there. Good luck with your rifle.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

From the first edition Lyman Black Powder Handbook comparing a .50 caliber 32" barrel to a .58 cal 32", with 100 grains 3f in the .50 and 140 grains 2f in the .58 we get muzzle velocities of 1978 fps for the .50 and 1506 fps in the .58. Muzzle energy runs 1561 ft.lb in .50 and 1308 in .58 caliber.

Joe, as that the edition where they were mixing data from GOEX (or was it still Gearhart-Owen?) and C&H powders? If it was, were the FFFg & the FFg in the data you quote from the same maker? The problem was, the C&H powder was from after they had lost their supply of good charcoal, and the powder had gone from being the best (think Swiss or better) to worse than early-production Elephant. If either of those was with C&H, the velocity-from-the-charge information will be way lower than it would be with be with better powder, although the downrange performance would naturally be the same for the velocity cited. The muzzle energy of the .58 load is what makes me suspicious.

On a related point, because energy is a function of the square of the velocity, the most accurate way to compare the efficiency of different loads is to look at the energy per grain you get from two loads, or the difference in energy for an increment of load (e.g. going up 5 or 10 grains at a time). When the ft-lb per gr (or per 5 or 10gr increment) starts dropping, you've exceeded the efficient charge range.

BTW, the ballistic coefficient of a roundball goes up linearly with diameter while the mass goes up with the cube - a .58 RB would have a ballistic coefficient 16% higher than a .50, but it would weigh 56% more. The difference in weight means a .58 ball would start with the same energy as a .50 at about 80% of the .50's muzzle velocity, but would lose it slower, both because of the better b.c. and because of the lower velocity. It would still have a higher trajectory, but should have lower wind drift (I think - don't have the numbers at hand).

I've got a .32 and a .50 now, so my ideosyncracies in toys

 

[roundball]

The .58 caliber I have is very accurate. It has a 1-70 twist and a 32" barrel. Loaded properly this thing is not only accurate but deadly. That big roundball carries a lot of down range thump.
I think it is a great caliber and for a traditional rifle one of the best for all around hunting out there.

Without a doubt...there's the class of calibers like the .45/.50/.54.....then there's the .58/.62cals that are in a class all their own...serious round ball whompability !
:thumbsup:

 

Years ago I went to a rendezvous that had a charging Grizzly target set up at 125 yds. I was shooting my .58 cal. Hawken and that grizzly got slammed down not just layed down like some of the smaller bore rifles were doing. 120 grs. of 2ff and a .575 ball with pillowtick for patching. They were cussing me for knocking all their gongs off the chains. You'll like yours I am pretty sure of that. .58 caliber is boss.

 

[MikeChapin]

I haven't tried to hit anything farther than 100 yards with my .58 but at 100, from a rest, it will keep all shots in one of those 3" day-glo sticky targets. On my own hind legs the group gets a little wider. For that I'm using 90 grains of KIK 2F, a .562 RB with .026 twill.

It would be nice to try it on silouetts. I would like to see what it would do on the 200 yard standing bear. I do know a .50 makes a nice noise when it hits them but doesn't knock them over.

 

[Beerd2]

I was at a gong shoot once with my 36 flinter. A hit was sort of "dink".
The 50's hit with a good "ding!".
When the guy with the 58 connected (he wasn't much of a shot) it went "CA-LANG!!!" No doubt in anyones mind if it was a hit or a miss.
..

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Tried to google it up, but no luck.

Years ago I read of a union engineer who shot a high ranking confederate officer over a mile away with a .58 Springfield. He calculated and plotted his shot for several days, as the officer would shave every morning at the same place. His biggest fear after he took the shot, was other soldiers in the camp were walking back and forth betwixt him and the intended target.

 

[Brasilikilt]

One thing I was told about large caliber bullets is that they all fly very very straight, the downside is of course that the bullet's weight keeps dragging it down a lot quicker than smaller calibers

 

[musketman]

I keep reading again and again about woodsmen carrying beefy large bore rifles into the west.
Since I've never shot anything larger than a .50, and want to get the same bruised shoulders they must have had back in the day, I'll go with the .58 and see what it can do......

My .58 Zouave isn't that bad, even with the large minie-ball and a stout load, why? Because of the gun's weight, a heavy gun will tame muzzle jump and help dampen recoil to a degree...

I think you will enjoy the big .58, do you cast or plan to cast your own roundballs?

If so, expect to get 26.9 roundball per pound of lead with the .58 caliber, this is a big difference from the 52.6 balls per pound with the .45 caliber...

 

Tried to google it up, but no luck.

Years ago I read of a union engineer who shot a high ranking confederate officer over a mile away with a .58 Springfield. He calculated and plotted his shot for several days, as the officer would shave every morning at the same place. His biggest fear after he took the shot, was other soldiers in the camp were walking back and forth betwixt him and the intended target.

The story you refer to is from the early 1950s. a work of fiction from the old "Mens' Magazine" days. The name of the story was"The Mile Shot".

In the story the sniper was a professional shootist using a 50 pound bench gun, not an issue .58.

It was good fiction, very entertaining.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yes Joel, that book does list C&H powder but I pretty much ignore it and look only at the Gearhart-Owen data. They chose to use 3f in all calibers up through .54 and went to 2f at .58 caliber, that is why I compared 100 grains 3f in the .50 against 140 grains 2f in .58.
You'll find similar but not exactly the same numbers in the newer, second edition Handbook. For whatever reason the .50 shows somewhat higher muzzle energy numbers than either .54 or .58 with the same powder charge, though the larger bores have somewhat more energy retained at 100 yards.
I like the old book better because it contains more ballistic data, including wind drift and trajectory in 25 yard steps, while the second edition is mostly Sam Fadala"s autobiography. :grin:

 

[roundball]

One thing I was told about large caliber bullets is that they all fly very very straight, the downside is of course that the bullet's weight keeps dragging it down a lot quicker than smaller calibers

Actually while lighter weight bullets leave the muzzle at higher velocities, they shed their velocity faster than heavier bullets and often actually drop faster because they start running out of gas (momentum)...for example, a .30-06/125grn SP starts out faster than a 150grn SP and actually drops more at long range than it's 150grn sister which started out slower...
:v

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Interesting that you refer to the Lyman manual Paul. My second edition shows a max load of 140 grains Goex 2f producing a muzzle energy of 1927 ft.lb. 100 grains produces 1308 ft.lb. That's a 47% gain in energy from a 40% increase in powder. I'd call that pretty durn efficient. Now granted, at 100 yards the difference is 740 and 598, only a 23% gain but that is still a gain and I doubt that it comes from powder burning "outside the barrel".
The older first edition handbook took the .58 on up to 180 grains of 2f and it showed a steady increase in velocity and energy right to the end. That powder burning "outside the barrel" seems to do more than the 80-100 grains burning "inside". :grin:
It's true that few shooters load that heavy and few factory built guns are rated for more than 100 grains, which is exactly why I see very little advantage in calibers larger than the more common .50-.54. If one wants more down-range "whomp" they should shoot conicals. While that .58 ball with 140 grains of powder carries a respectable 740# at 100 yards, a .50 conical can retain over 1300#, nearly double the .58's energy with only 100 grains of powder. And that still ain't no super-mag, they ALL require very careful shot placement.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

One thing I was told about large caliber bullets is that they all fly very very straight, the downside is of course that the bullet's weight keeps dragging it down a lot quicker than smaller calibers

Good point, with 100 grains of powder the .58 gets only about 1400 fps. Sight in 3" high at 50 and you'll be about 3" low at 100 and a foot or more low at 125. That doesn't leave much margin for error in range estimation.
The same 100 grains in a .50 will exceed 1800 fps and with the same sighting, 3" high at 50 will be dead on at 125. That makes shot placement easier and shot placement rules all. :grin:

 

[sledgemeister]

Up in the bush where I shoot we have a couple metal targets hanging from the tree they are made from the sides of metal transmission towers (about 1/4 inch thick but hardened, tuff stuff), and are about 75 yards away in distance. When my mate shoots them with his 45 hawken it goes dooing and leaves a small indentation same size an american dime, when I shoot them with the 58 cal its like a cannon ball hitting the side of a iron clad ship (booooing) and leaves a dent like a tennis ball. It also shoots about 6 inches high at this range at 100 yrds its pretty much spot on.
What distance does it shoot? All I know is I wouldnt bare my bum at 400 yrds let alone 200.